Article on Chaptalization, looks full of interest!!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... EV50OU.DTL

Excellent Bob. I found the most interesting part to be about Burgundy wine makers using Chaptalization to extend fermantation time, while adding only minute amounts of alcohol.

Thanks Bob, other forums seem to have picked this article up.

i had an interesting discussion and experience re: chap. in Germany at Lingenfelder

He makes this amazing bottle conditioned sparkling wine called Satyr, with NO sugar added. He uses sweet juice from the current vintage (I think) instead. He claims that there is never a need for adding sugar, and that grape juice can always be used instead, keeping it real..

an interesting approach

and his sparkling wine is one of the best I've ever had...

http://www.lingenfelder.com/our_wines/satyr_info.htm

PS "often add acid"?

In australia, isn't it standard practice for so called "crisp" whites?

heck, they even add acid to Ontario icewine!

i had an interesting discussion and experience re: chap. in Germany at Lingenfelder

He makes this amazing bottle conditioned sparkling wine called Satyr, with NO sugar added. He uses sweet juice from the current vintage (I think) instead. He claims that there is never a need for adding sugar, and that grape juice can always be used instead, keeping it real..

JFTMOR, Karl Steininger, who makes excellent single variety bubblies in Langenlois/Kamptal/Austria (Grüner Veltliner, Riesling, Sauvignon Blanc, Traminer) does not use either sugar or grape juice for the second fermentation, but stops the first fermentation at a residual sugar of around 25 g/l. So his 13% bubblies are totally natural (except for the addition of yeast, of course).

[David M. Bueker]

Lingenfelder is not the only German vintner using sweet wine for the dosage. Breuer has done the same thing. In a situation where sweet wine is readily available that is a great option. Of course there's not a lot of auslese made in Champagne.

i had an interesting discussion and experience re: chap. in Germany at Lingenfelder

He makes this amazing bottle conditioned sparkling wine called Satyr, with NO sugar added. He uses sweet juice from the current vintage (I think) instead. He claims that there is never a need for adding sugar, and that grape juice can always be used instead, keeping it real..

JFTMOR, Karl Steininger, who makes excellent single variety bubblies in Langenlois/Kamptal/Austria (Grüner Veltliner, Riesling, Sauvignon Blanc, Traminer) does not use either sugar or grape juice for the second fermentation, but stops the first fermentation at a residual sugar of around 25 g/l. So his 13% bubblies are totally natural (except for the addition of yeast, of course).

I'd love to try those!

Lingenfelder is an interesting dude - if I understood him correctly ( I was there quite a while and tasted every single wine!) he doesn't stop ferment (it's his 'all natural' policy), and just lets the wines go with whatever yeast is there, so that his estate wines end up with varying RS each year. It hurts consistency I guess, but I admire his philosophical approach.

There must be exceptions, because he does have off-dry and trocken versions (although he might just classify them after they are done and he's measured the RS)

if you haven't had his full line-up of estate wines - it's worth a visit there. His Scheurebes from the Muzikantenbeukel vineyard are amazing. The Ypsilon (1993!) is one of the best wines I've ever had, period. It tastes like a young aromatic, rich white wine. And it is 15 years old. Incredible.

Sorry, I misinterpreted the comments about Lingenfelder.

What Lingenfelder does is all about dosage (liqueur d'expédition), but has nothing to do with chaptalization. There are quite a few using sweet wines for dosage, among others the house of Szigeti in Gols, Austria.

Karl Steininger's unique (at least afaik) approach is not using sugar in the liqueur de tirage.

[David M. Bueker]

Karl Steininger's unique (at least afaik) approach is not using sugar in the liqueur de tirage.

Isn't that essentially a brut zero or brut natural approach? There's a good many of those (just witness Voodoo going on about it over on the dark side...).

Just my 2¢:

Over 20 years ago, I was working for the Austrian importer and distributor of Joseph Drouhin Burgundies. When I met their export manager, we discussed the topics of irrigation (the French are always appaled: "mais ça fait pisser la vigne!") and chaptalisation (no top Austria white or sweet ever sees sugar). The guy told me that Drouhin had bottled one single pièce of Beaune Clos des Mouches 1976 — an extremely hot year — without chaptalization, whereas the rest was chaptalized as usual, "à un tiers de degré", meaning an increase of 0.33%abv. Whenever somebody important enough was at their premises, they opend both versions and served them side by side. "In every single case the chaptalized wine was preferred to the unchaptalized version", I was told.
There was no mention of an extended maceration time, however, and very personally, I think this theory something rather far-fetched ...

Karl Steininger's unique (at least afaik) approach is not using sugar in the liqueur de tirage.

Isn't that essentially a brut zero or brut natural approach? There's a good many of those (just witness Voodoo going on about it over on the dark side...).

I knew it will be getting confusing ...

David, "brut nature" or "dosage zero" concern the fact that there is no sugar (in the liqueur d'expédition) added to finished sparkler after second fermentation. But just about any sparkler has sugar plus yeast (in the liqueur de tirage) added to the non-sparkling base wine before second fermentation — except Karl Steininger whose bubblies use residual sugar of the non-totally fermented base wine for the second fermentation.

Clearer now?

[David M. Bueker]

When it comes to chaptalization I am an agnostic until the bottle is opened. There are few to zero chances to actually taste a chaptalized versus non-chaptalized cuvée side by side with all other things being equal. Mostly I see the debate resting on near-thological grounds which is something I have no interest in.

Karl Steininger's unique (at least afaik) approach is not using sugar in the liqueur de tirage.

Jacky Blot of Domaine de la Taille Aux Loups in Montlouis does a "Triple Zero" cremant - no added sugar at any of the 3 stages.

[David M. Bueker]

Karl Steininger's unique (at least afaik) approach is not using sugar in the liqueur de tirage.

Isn't that essentially a brut zero or brut natural approach? There's a good many of those (just witness Voodoo going on about it over on the dark side...).

I knew it will be getting confusing ...

David, "brut nature" or "dosage zero" concern the fact that there is no sugar (in the liqueur d'expédition) added to finished sparkler after second fermentation. But just about any sparkler has sugar plus yeast (in the liqueur de tirage) added to the non-sparkling base wine before second fermentation — except Karl Steininger whose bubblies use residual sugar of the non-totally fermented base wine for the second fermentation.

Clearer now?

Ah...yes. I missed the tirage and automatically assumed expédition. Interesting. Of course stopping fermentation is a different kind of winemaking interference.

Ah...yes. I missed the tirage and automatically assumed expédition.

No Problem.

Interesting. Of course stopping fermentation is a different kind of winemaking interference.

Well, as wine does not occur naturally, but is made by human intervention, this holds true for sparkling wine even more.

As to stopping fermentation (by cooling the tank), I have difficulties to see this procedure somehow "less natural" than adding beetroot sugar to the fully fermented base wine.

When talking Champagne, a vintage is considered perfect when the base wine naturally reaches 10.5% without chaptalisation. If not — which is the case more often —, the must is chaptalized to reach this degree. Considering the degree of the finished product — 12 to 12.5% — one can easily say that Champagne is way the most chaptalized wine of the world. And it can be absolutely great!

Sorry David,

I somehow missed your posting talking about chaptalization discussion being somehow near-theological. I'm totally with you on this matter.

Sorry, I misinterpreted the comments about Lingenfelder.

What Lingenfelder does is all about dosage (liqueur d'expédition), but has nothing to do with chaptalization. There are quite a few using sweet wines for dosage, among others the house of Szigeti in Gols, Austria.

Karl Steininger's unique (at least afaik) approach is not using sugar in the liqueur de tirage.

But Lingelfelder doesn't add sugar (other than the natural grape sugar in the riesling juice) at ANY stage, as I understand it. It is all on the website. So that's pretty pure, ain't it?

In any case, yes, I'm with the camp that says " Let me taste the wine, and then I'll tell you what I think about chaptalization."

I guess we have to look at all these techniques, whethere it's Chap, adding acid, using sulphur, deacidification, vineyard pruning, irrigation, dealcoholization, wind machines, using enzymes to pull flavours out of the skins, using tannin additions to fix colour during maceration, micro Ox, heated macerations, dry ice, chilling, filtering, etc. etc. as valid ways to make a possibly good beverage. At what point do you draw the line?

Shall we just let the vines grow wild and hope the grapes fall into a bucket where they will naturally ferment, then we'll drink it? Oh, we can't put the bucket there -- that's human intervention! Let's hope they land in an upturned cow skull. That's biodynamique!