Does This Seem Petty?

My wife and I recently had dinner at a local fine dining establishment. The restaurant is well known for its creative menu, which changes weekly. The fare is focused on locally produced farm products. The setting is small and quaint and the wait staff was quite professional. The food itself was also quite tasty and well prepared.

My complaint is this; since my wife and I were the only two dining we decided to order from the selections of wines by the glass. We ordered a Gewurztraminer ($8/glass) to start. It was served to us in generic stemmed goblets. I thought this somewhat odd, but didn't really dwell on it. In the mean time the table next to us had ordered a bottle of a red wine with their main course and they were being served in large Bordeaux style glasses. I thought 'No problem. We will get large glasses when we order the red wine with our main course'. For the main course my wife selected a Dolcetto D' Alba ($14/glass) and I selected a Cal Cabernet ($13/glass). To our surprise the wines again showed up in generic stemmed goblet, which was even more irritating due to the actual wine glasses being used at the table next to us. When I inquired I was told that the goblets are used because they fit nicely in the dishwasher, and that the larger glasses are used only for premium wine service!

Now, I'm not a wine snob, and I don't get too hung up on wine service in general, but is it too much to expect for a high end restaurant to serve all of their red wines in red wine glasses? If I'm going to drop $170 on dinner for two I think that the establishment could go to Target and pick up a few dozen off-brand red wine stems to enhance my wine drinking experience. Call me petty, but I don't plan to return, though I did enjoy the food.

I would have had the same complaint. One of my frequent dining companions (with a 40 year career in the hospitality sector as GM of some high-end hotels and restaurants) would have made an issue out of it and asked to speak to the manager or owner. And we would have gotten the correct stemware.

But we also wouldn't be returning, and he would have told them exactly why.

$14 a glass for the Dolcetto? I'd hate think what the "premium" wines cost. This best result would have been to ask for a new pour in a proper glass. My guess is that they serve the by the glass stuff in smaller glasses so that you don't realize the outlandish mark-up they are getting. If you can't BYO I wouldn't go back.

Sam,
I agree with you. I think a good establishment should treat all customers as "Premium". I mean, if one orders something on the menu that is slightly less than haute cuisine, would they serve on paper plates? Besides, for $14/glass, I would expect....oh never mind.

Seems obnoxious on the restaurant's part.

And even if that was their real reason, to tell you the customer that they preferred goblets because they fit nicely in the dishwasher seems a bit rude.

I've certainly seen the "2 tiered" stemware policy before, where better glasses are reserved for bottles (or even "better" bottles). Doesn't make it right, although I understand from a cost and breakage standpoint Riedels for all can be expensive. But by my standards,$14 btg Dolcetto IS premium wine!

It does seem petty. On their part. At home we use Reidel restaurnt glasses that have shorter stems designed specifically to fit in a dishwasher. They cost about $5 each. At $14/glass, I'd expect you could drink your wine, smash the glass every time, and still have a reasonable markup for the restaurant.

This is nothing short of showing disdain for the customers. I understand how that can creep into the restaurant business, but once it sets in it's usually terminal. It's only a matter of time before the "stemware doesn't matter" mindset creeps into "salads don't matter" and then "food doesn't matter." You have the right idea in not going back, and IMO you'd be well-grounded to warn others away as well.

I'd hope I'd say that I was a wine enthusiast and I'd appreciate the dolcetto in such glasses as it should enhance the flavour - indeed we use similar glasses at home. If they still stick to their line then I think they know how much they value you. I might even on a good day send the wine back and ask for tap water (as it suits the level of service they're offering).

regards

Ian

Sam,
Not petty at all.
Atlanta, IN?
BP

FWIW, I did complain via email to the owner. She sent me back a message restating the policy that I was given in the restaurant. She also said that I was the first person to complain in the six years that they have been open. That was really surprising, and why I thought perhaps I was being petty.

It looked to me like the bottle prices were about 3X retail. I assume the glass prices were at least that. They do not allow BYO, or I would have gone that route.

Sam,
Not petty at all.
Atlanta, IN?
BP

Bill,

No. In fact I find the establishment in Atlanta to be quite wine friendly. If you haven't been there lately I think that they have made a real resurgence in the last year, or so. The place I had trouble with was downtown on Mass. Avenue. I hate to name it publically, so I will just vote with my pocket book.

FWIW, I did complain via email to the owner. She sent me back a message restating the policy that I was given in the restaurant. She also said that I was the first person to complain in the six years that they have been open. That was really surprising, and why I thought perhaps I was being petty.

It looked to me like the bottle prices were about 3X retail. I assume the glass prices were at least that. They do not allow BYO, or I would have gone that route.

Sam,
Not petty at all.
Atlanta, IN?
BP

Bill,

No. In fact I find the establishment in Atlanta to be quite wine friendly. If you haven't been there lately I think that they have made a real resurgence in the last year, or so. The place I had trouble with was downtown on Mass. Avenue. I hate to name it publically, so I will just vote with my pocket book.

Oh, come on, Sam. Inquiring mnds want to know.

FWIW, I did complain via email to the owner. She sent me back a message restating the policy that I was given in the restaurant. She also said that I was the first person to complain in the six years that they have been open. That was really surprising, and why I thought perhaps I was being petty.

It looked to me like the bottle prices were about 3X retail. I assume the glass prices were at least that. They do not allow BYO, or I would have gone that route. [...]

No. In fact I find the establishment in Atlanta to be quite wine friendly. If you haven't been there lately I think that they have made a real resurgence in the last year, or so. The place I had trouble with was downtown on Mass. Avenue. I hate to name it publically, so I will just vote with my pocket book.

I thought that that was the place you were referring to, Sam. FWIW, I wasn't wowed in our one meal there. The cooking was OK and I liked the idea behind it all, but the wine list left me underwhelmed and (as your story illustrates) the markups were borderline offensive. I actually prefer the cooking at Oakley's Bistro, but their wine list is nothing to write home about, either.

Mark Lipton

I'm going to be the contrarian here.

What is wrong with drinking average quality wine from average wine glasses? When I order middle tier wine by the glass in an Italian restaurant and it comes in a tumbler, I consider that par for the course. Dolcetto in a goblet makes perfect sense, since it is not likely to be enhanced by crystal. And if the Cab cost less than the Dolcetto, it is probably of middling quality. Why, other than pretention or envy, do you need to drink such unfancy wine from fancy crystal? If you did not see the other table drinking from crystal, would you have complained?

Why not tell us what the labels were?

We have run into the stemware policy many times when dining. So much so that my wife will ask when we are ordering the wine about the stemware and request the good stuff if needed. What I find most upsetting about your story is we have never been told that we could not have the better stemware once we requested it. It may not be offered initially but a simple request for the glasses that the table over there is using has always worked. Well except the one time that the wait person disappeared for 10 minutes only to come back and inform us that every other stem in the place was in use. From the length of time she was gone and the genuine look she gave us when telling us I believe that was the case.

To tell you that it is their policy to not give you the glassware you request (when it is clearly available) is to me the same as refusing to take back a dish that you find unacceptable.

A very good small restaurant here in Edmonton has those big balloon glasses on every table! Nice wine selection too but not very wine friendly I`d say! Are they historically for Burgundy?
Have to agree with most comments here. The places I am involved with have to possess the right stemware, especially for port and dessert wines. No half measures in the colony here!!!
The Grill downtown has a great selection of decanters as well which are constantly put to good use. One party last year, the hostess wanted her Piesporter served in a decanter and tied a pink bow on the neck!!

If you did not see the other table drinking from crystal, would you have complained?

I do need to correct one error; my wife had a Chianti Classico @ $14/glass, not a Dolcetto. I should have checked my facts with her before posting.

To answer your question, Bernard, "yes", I would have still complained. If I plan a night out at what is advertised as a fine dining establishment, and spend a decent sum of money in the process, I expect to be served red wine in red wine glasses. To me it is part and parcel of "fine dining". That is the first time that I can ever remember dining at such an establishment and not being served in wine glasses. I thought the goblets were undersized for the white wine, let alone the red.

This past Saturday we ate at a little hole in the wall Italian place here in town with another couple. They served the red wine in large stems! I would not have been at all offended if they had served the wine in goblets. I think our total tab for the four of us was about $70. The policy at the high end restaurant would seem to be a real turn-off the anyone who takes wine somewhat seriously.

[Jenise]

What Dale said.

I ran into this once before, and on that occasion I remember explaining to the waitron that inferior glassware leads to an inferior wine experience, and our glassware was immediately replaced. As yours should have been. But what happened to us was also about 10 or so years ago when both consumers and restaurants were a little more naive about the benefits of better glassware--I'd bet that same restaurant today does not still have a two-tier policy, or if they do then both levels have been elevated so that it's Riedel Extremes for the $200 and up bottles and glassware no one would complain about like Riedel Vinums or Rosenthals for everything else. It's quite surprising to hear about the kind of service--and explanation--you got. The message is "You're not a good enough customer, and we don't value your patronage." Nobody's food is THAT good.

Jenise,

A lot of restaurateurs still don't know that good glassware changes the experience of wine-drinking, they still think it's an aesthetic decision (like better china or flatware). Very odd.

[Jenise]

Jenise,

A lot of restaurateurs still don't know that good glassware changes the experience of wine-drinking, they still think it's an aesthetic decision (like better china or flatware). Very odd.

Yeah, I realize. And if I'm paying $25 a person I don't expect much. But at the kind of restaurant where dinner for two costs almost two bills as in Sam's experience, one could at least expect a bigger glass for a red wine than a white, don't you think?

It's quite surprising to hear about the kind of service--and explanation--you got. The message is "You're not a good enough customer, and we don't value your patronage." Nobody's food is THAT good.

...and if somebody's food was THAT good, my experience suggests that the stemware wouldn't be an issue either. I've never run across a fine dining establishment that pays attention to every detail in the kitchen but has disastrous service policies like refusing proper stemware service. If the front of the house doesn't give a crap about the customers, you can bet that the kitchen doesn't either.

Jenise,

A lot of restaurateurs still don't know that good glassware changes the experience of wine-drinking, they still think it's an aesthetic decision (like better china or flatware). Very odd.

Yeah, I realize. And if I'm paying $25 a person I don't expect much. But at the kind of restaurant where dinner for two costs almost two bills as in Sam's experience, one could at least expect a bigger glass for a red wine than a white, don't you think?

I do think that one should be able to expect decent glassware at a decent restaurant, hence my crack about 'very odd.' They're wrong, you're right.

It's quite surprising to hear about the kind of service--and explanation--you got. The message is "You're not a good enough customer, and we don't value your patronage." Nobody's food is THAT good.

...and if somebody's food was THAT good, my experience suggests that the stemware wouldn't be an issue either. I've never run across a fine dining establishment that pays attention to every detail in the kitchen but has disastrous service policies like refusing proper stemware service. If the front of the house doesn't give a crap about the customers, you can bet that the kitchen doesn't either.

I wish that were true; a very good customer of mine in San Francisco has some of the best food in the city and dreadful Libby glassware. They often don't understand that it makes a difference.

I wish that were true; a very good customer of mine in San Francisco has some of the best food in the city and dreadful Libby glassware. They often don't understand that it makes a difference.

Oliver,

I wouldn't have cared that the stems were not Spiegelau, or Reidel. I just wanted them to make an effort at serving in an actual red wine glass. I agree that the glass style makes a tremendous difference in the wine drinking experience.

I just tasted with the buyer at the restaurant in SF earlier today. He himself groaned about the quality of the glasses; last time I raised the issue with the manager he said in effect 'we do 600 meals a day, can you imagine the breakage.'

The more people who complain the more they'll take it seriously.