'02 Rhones: Not all disasters

I've found some enjoyable '02 Rhones selling for a song, compared to less maligned vintages. While the harvest rains pretty much destroyed anything red from the southern rhone, the whites were harvested before the rains, and the northern reds suffered less. I recently enjoyed an '02 Beaucastel Blanc, and an '02 Tardieu Laurent Hermitage Rouge, both purchased for about $25@. Anyone else enjoying good wines from bad years?
Cheers,
Warren

Yes, Warren, I like "bad" years. To stick with 2002, unfavoured regions, like the Rhône, made some nice ones but the price needs to be right. In particular, I remember excellent Cornas from Clape and Barbaresco from La Spinetta. I've tasted some pretty CdP, Chianti and Brunello, as well, but have found the price reductions inadequate to warrant purchase.

As you note, '02 was much better off in Northern Rhone than Southern (not great, but not awful). I'm sure someone made good wines in Southern Rhone in '02 (some hillside above the flooding, etc) but too much work to try and find without specific info.

Similarly, a lot of the problem with '02 Piedmonts had to do with hail, and some places were spared. And/or good producers did severe selections.

My theory re "bad" vintages is to try producers I respect, if prices are attractive. But if I saw 2001 Barolo or Cote Rotie, next to same bottlings of 2002s at same price, I would always grab the 2001 (absent having heard something great about that particular wine).

I've had a lot of great off-vintage wines. But not as many as from what I think of as "great" vintages (and then we get into the vintages that some think great that I don't).

I had an '02 Rostaing Cote Rotie Cuvee Terriors the other night that was dreadfully thin. That $16 price tag for a Rostaing CR was one I couldn't pass up but it wasn't much fun at all to drink.

At $16 one would have to try. Too bad.

[Jenise]

I bought a couple of 02 Rhones as well. The standout of them all is/was the Roger Sabon. Complex and honed, not what I'd call a light wine per se but in a good way it's more delicate and delineated than a big year wine would be. I bought the Clape (100% syrah with declassified juice) hoping for similar but have been disappointed so far. The Grand Montmirail Tradition has been good, in fact it's time to try another. Paid $10 each for all those just mentioned. And I loved the Mont Olivet when it was selling here in town for about $20.

I love talking about Bordeaux when talking about "bad vintage" wines, though. Have you had the 99 Palmer, or the 99 Leoville Haut Brion? Or the 93 Leoville Las Cases or 92 Ausone or 91 Latour? Bad year my foot! Maybe the latter three won't live as long as some of their stablemates from more heralded vintages, but the wine in those bottles is anything but bad wine.

Hey, have you spoken to Chaz about January? I'm ready....

I love talking about Bordeaux when talking about "bad vintage" wines, though. Have you had the 99 Palmer, or the 99 Leoville Haut Brion? Or the 93 Leoville Las Cases or 92 Ausone or 91 Latour? Bad year my foot! ..

Jenise,

Leoville Haut Brion?

I don't think many people would put '99 as a bad vintage, though it is probably not on anyone's list of great (and the Palmer is generally considered candidate for wine of the vintage). '93 is more so-so than bad, plenty of drinkable wines. But yes, I'd call '91 and '92 bad years. I haven't had the '92 Ausone or '91 Latour ( but I did like the '92 LLC, should have gotten more at under$50). I'm sure your examples are good wines. But I've had pretty awful '92s and especially 91s, and would classify them as bad years. Bad years doesn't mean that no good wine is made, just far less than average. And blind buying '91s and '92s would put a world of hurt on one's palate (not to say I wouldn't bite if I saw a producer I liked for firesale prices).

[Jenise]

Where the H did Haut Brion come from? I meant Barton--but what's really strange is that I wasn't even thinking of Haut Brion--none of the candidates that came to mind in answering Warren were that.

I accept your shadings re those '90's Bordeaux vintages, and I agree. I guess I was talking from the point of view of far too many afficionados I know who consider all vintages not crowned Great vintages as "bad". Bordeaux collectors (particularly American) seem to be more prone to that than most--words like "so-so" often aren't even in their vocabulary.

Where the H did Haut Brion come from? I meant Barton--
.

I liked and own all 3 Leovilles in '99 (though the Poyferre is probably the first "modern" one), seem to be in the sweet spot.

.

I accept your shadings re those '90's Bordeaux vintages, and I agree. I guess I was talking from the point of view of far too many afficionados I know who consider all vintages not crowned Great vintages as "bad". Bordeaux collectors (particularly American) seem to be more prone to that than most--words like "so-so" often aren't even in their vocabulary.

There are certainly people who ONLY drink great vintages, but that's why many middling vintages are affordable. Or even very very very good vintages- until recently, many '83s traded for about half their '82 counterparts. '88s were also quite affordable (both vintages seem to have been "discovered" recently). So I am grateful for the "only vintages rated 95 and up" people, less pressure on other vintages.

I think the saddest thing re "great vintage only" people is when you see someone with a vintage chart in a restaurant, ordering a '00 or '96 Medoc great growth rather than say a '93, '97, or '99, when the latter vintages are more likely to be open and drinking well (gross generalization, of course, as most things on wine boards are).

'02 Tardieu Laurent Hermitage Rouge

Oh yes! And gladly not as modern in style as T-L so often is. Also T-L's Vaqueyras Grandes Bastides was great. Otherwise from the South, it's been hard otherwise, with only Rayas Rouge being a standout. But the North has produced some very attractive wines - Clape's Cornas, as mentioned above, I found especially memorable.

I love vintages like '02 because when successful, they are both cheap and savoury and at best very elegant - no pointy stuff in sight!

IMO Bordeaux is the area where the market over-reacts to vintage variations - with some people only focused on 1982, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990 etc. That does leave bargains open and long may that continue.

With other regions there seems less of a motivation to vary price year on year and hence until the wines hit auction (or occasionally the better sales / bin-ends), there's little to be gained in hunting out the successes in a poor vintage. With (for instance) Penfolds Bin series reds (2, 28, 389 etc.) you can stock up on the better vintages at the same price as the lesser ones. Reductions / sales appear to ignore the quality of the vintage (or indeed the wine in the bottle).

I'm keen to try some Cornas, so might just keep an eye out at auction for some 02's - presumably a lighter approachable style?

regards

Ian

IMO Bordeaux is the area where the market over-reacts to vintage variations - with some people only focused on 1982, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990 etc. That does leave bargains open and long may that continue.

I think that I'd place Burgundy in that same category, largely because of the frenzies created by "great" years ('99, '02, '05) that make those "off" years ('00, '01) look affordable by comparison. There is some justification for this attitude, though: in a "great" year one can buy wines from reputable producers with little to no risk, whereas in a year like '00 knowledge of producers and their performance in that year is critical to finding good wines.

I'm keen to try some Cornas, so might just keep an eye out at auction for some 02's - presumably a lighter approachable style?

Yup. '02 wasn't the disaster in the North that it was in the S. Rhone, but one still must focus on those producers who were able to make good wines in a challenging year (indeed, when mustn't one do that?). I'd take a chance on an '02 by Clape or Allemand.

Mark Lipton

I think that I'd place Burgundy in that same category, largely because of the frenzies created by "great" years ('99, '02, '05) that make those "off" years ('00, '01) look affordable by comparison.

I must admit that I haven't followed vintage generalisations as much as I should have, but isn't '01 in Burgundy considered a very good year? It may not be as ripe as the ones you listed as "great" but I thought I have heard some authoritative commentators praise '01.

I think that I'd place Burgundy in that same category,..

I almost did myself, but have less experience in buying the stuff - it does give the impression of being similar, if not as extreme as Bordeaux, but instead has the almost masonic aura about the small undiscovered gems

I think that I'd place Burgundy in that same category, largely because of the frenzies created by "great" years ('99, '02, '05) that make those "off" years ('00, '01) look affordable by comparison.

I must admit that I haven't followed vintage generalisations as much as I should have, but isn't '01 in Burgundy considered a very good year? It may not be as ripe as the ones you listed as "great" but I thought I have heard some authoritative commentators praise '01.

As always, Otto, it depends so much upon whom one considers an authoritative commentator. Here's one commentator's view.

Mark Lipton

Unless you have money burning through your pockets, why bother to scout these types of bargains? There are always too many worthy wines from around the world - too many to buy them all! Why not buy excellent vintages from places where the wines are underpriced even in excellent vintages?

There are always too many worthy wines from around the world - too many to buy them all! Why not buy excellent vintages from places where the wines are underpriced even in excellent vintages?

I had a conversation with a friend the other day that was similar to this, as he was harping on about how there will always be undervalued wines. (Similar to the argument we often hear from Hoke on these boards )

However, while I agree that one should keep an open mind and think of the broad picture, all wines at the same pricepoint are not equal, and when you get priced out of Northern Rhone syrah you can't just replace it with cheaper Australian syrah.

More relevant to this thread, sometimes you need the structural/flavor elements found in a particular wine, and they can't be replaced by cheap stuff from elsewhere.

There are always too many worthy wines from around the world - too many to buy them all! Why not buy excellent vintages from places where the wines are underpriced even in excellent vintages?

I had a conversation with a friend the other day that was similar to this, as he was harping on about how there will always be undervalued wines. (Similar to the argument we often hear from Hoke on these boards )

However, while I agree that one should keep an open mind and think of the broad picture, all wines at the same pricepoint are not equal, and when you get priced out of Northern Rhone syrah you can't just replace it with cheaper Australian syrah.

More relevant to this thread, sometimes you need the structural/flavor elements found in a particular wine, and they can't be replaced by cheap stuff from elsewhere.

Indeed, Rahsaan. While I agree with Bernard's central thesis (that there are too many worthy wines), it isn't a matter of strict interchangability. While Muscadet may relieve my Chablis itch to a fair extent, what can replace Côte-Rôtie or the Côte D'Or? Beaujolais is beautiful, and can even do a fair Pinot Noir imitation at times, but certain things are hard, if not impossible, to truly replace.

Mark Lipton

While I agree with Bernard's central thesis (that there are too many worthy wines), it isn't a matter of strict interchangability. While Muscadet may relieve my Chablis itch to a fair extent, what can replace Côte-Rôtie or the Côte D'Or? Beaujolais is beautiful, and can even do a fair Pinot Noir imitation at times, but certain things are hard, if not impossible, to truly replace.

Mark Lipton

As a general matter, I agree that "certain wines are hard, if not impossible, to truly replace" and while Aussie Shiraz may not replace a Cote Rotie when the latter has a down year, that does not seem to me to suggest that you stumble through a bunch of wines from the bad year to find the exception which is decent. It suggests to me you visit your cellar and pull the cork on a Cote Rotie from a good producer and a good year.
As to the topic here, I stupidly tried a few 2002 southern rhones, and quickly gave up on the vintage, and as it turns out I could and did consume southern rhones of various levels from the 98 - 01 vintages until a better vintage came along, and sure enough, it did. And again, and again.
I totally agree with Bernard on this one. At a glass or two a day, I can only drink so much wine. Why would I gamble on a terrible vintage even though there may be a gem there someplace, when I can open a bottle from the same producer, earlier vintage, that I know I really like. That, of course, is one of the side benefits of cellaring - the ability to skip vintages that present a real gamble, or are generally of a style that doesn't please you.
I know that this attitude may penalize the poor producer who works his azz off to make a great wine in a bad year, and while that producer should be rewarded, someone else will have to find him. Not me.

There is no such thing as a great (or poor) vintage. Only great (or poor) bottles. Anyone who tells you differently probably believes in vintage charts, points and the tooth fairy.

Of course, then there is 2003. Oh never mind.

Regarding the 02 southern Rhônes, I believe it was Châteauneuf du Pape got hit hardest, and many producers chose to declassify their wines and sell them as Côtes du Rhône to try and recoup at least some investment. Conversely, this meant that there were bargains to be had, not among those brave enough to sample ‘02 Châteauneuf du Papes, but among the $10-$15 Côtes du Rhônes. I’m positive Robin wrote up one such wine at the time.

At one industry tasting I went to – and I wish I could remember who it was – I met a wine-maker, surely not from Châteauneuf du Pape itself but a southern Village, who insisted that their 02s were absolutely fine, that they were perfectly pleased with them – but that the word had gone out that 02 was a disaster across the entire southern Rhône , and they couldn’t sell them.

For my part, I was relieved to have a bad year. I’d bought more than my fair share from 98-01 and needed a break for the sake of my bank account!

Regarding the 02 southern Rhônes, I believe it was Châteauneuf du Pape got hit hardest...At one industry tasting I went to – and I wish I could remember who it was – I met a wine-maker, surely not from Châteauneuf du Pape itself but a southern Village, who insisted that their 02s were absolutely fine, that they were perfectly pleased with them – but that the word had gone out that 02 was a disaster across the entire southern Rhône , and they couldn’t sell them.

Chateauneuf may have been hit the hardest, but there is no denying that it was a challenging vintage up and down the Rhone. This producer may have had a legitimate gripe, but then again many producers will always claim their wines are absolutely fine, even when pouring you evidence to the contrary.

Regarding the 02 southern Rhônes, I believe it was Châteauneuf du Pape got hit hardest...At one industry tasting I went to – and I wish I could remember who it was – I met a wine-maker, surely not from Châteauneuf du Pape itself but a southern Village, who insisted that their 02s were absolutely fine, that they were perfectly pleased with them – but that the word had gone out that 02 was a disaster across the entire southern Rhône , and they couldn’t sell them.

Chateauneuf may have been hit the hardest, but there is no denying that it was a challenging vintage up and down the Rhone. This producer may have had a legitimate gripe, but then again many producers will always claim their wines are absolutely fine, even when pouring you evidence to the contrary.

Well, the problems in the S. Rhone were the torrential rains and the flooding that ensued. In such situations (as in the Kamptal in Austria that same year) properties with better drainage such as you get in steeply terraced vineyards will generally do better. Since CdP is on a plain with very little slope, it got hammered; other communes such as Gigondas and Rasteau are partly on the slopes of the Dentelles and I would guess fared much better in '02. Likewise the better vineyards in the N. Rhone are usually quite steeply terraced and probably came out of the whole nightmare better.

Mark Lipton