The Wine Advocate Argentina Scores

Here is a partial list of wines scored by Jay Miller in the last issue of The Wine Advocate - issue number 174. This information has been distributed by various national ogranizations including Wines of Argentina, Argentine Wines, to members of the international press & members of the trade.

Vintage / Wine / Score / Maturity
2006 Vina Cobos Malbec Marchiori Vineyard (98-100) Young
2006 Vina Cobos Bramare Marchiori Vineyard (96-99) Young
2004 Achaval Ferrer Malbec Finca Altamira 98 Young
2005 Vina Cobos Malbec Marchiori Vineyard 98 Young
2005 Vina Cobos U Nico Marchiori Vineyard 98 Young
2004 Achaval Ferrer Malbec Finca Bella Vista 97 Young
2005 Vina Cobos Bramare Marchiori Vineyard 96 Young
2004 Achaval Ferrer Quimera 93 Young
2004 Bodega Noemia de Patagonia Malbec 93 Young
2003 Benegas Lynch Meritage 91 Young
2003 Benegas Finca Libertad 90 Young
2005 Benegas Syrah Estate 90 Early

Great Alej, will see how many I can pick up here in my area!!! Better get there fast as prices are bound to increase.
Did you know we are tasting Malbec on Wine Focus here next month??

This represents a decisive entry into the 95-100 category by Argentina, a quantum jump into the big leagues. Reflecting a terrific job done over the last ten years, certainly in terms of overall quality and cost/benefit but, most of all, in the development of a specific and local wine personality. Congratulations!

This represents a decisive entry into the 95-100 category by Argentina, a quantum jump into the big leagues. Reflecting a terrific job done over the last ten years, certainly in terms of overall quality and cost/benefit but, most of all, in the development of a specific and local wine personality. Congratulations!

Don't know about the scores thing but I can tell you the hoopla's going to make them harder to find and more expensive. Too bad.

Anyway I love your signature line. Just priceless. Thanks for the chuckle.

Glad you like the quote, Howard. It has since been adopted by at least two other members of this board as the quote at the bottom of their postings, without (sub)attribution. I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...

This represents a decisive entry into the 95-100 category by Argentina, a quantum jump into the big leagues. Reflecting a terrific job done over the last ten years, certainly in terms of overall quality and cost/benefit but, most of all, in the development of a specific and local wine personality. Congratulations!

Oswaldo,

Without disputing the effort being put forth by Argentine vintners and their multinational consultants, do you think the sudden jump in scoring has anything to do with the reviewer? He is beginnng to develop quite a track record for making high-scoring splashes in his debut reports--witness his prior efforts on Spain, Chile, Washington State and Australia.

Hi, Joe, good point. Since I have found the Achaval-Ferrer fincas and the top Vina Cobos malbec to be really superb (and, to some extent, the lofty scores are seconded by WS), I wasn't inclined to suspect anything untoward . Do you think the reviewer in question is simply too generous, or do you have a sense that there is something more than meets the palate going on here (à la Mondovino, perhaps)?

Any of these in the USD sub-$20 category?

Sub-$15?

Sub-$10?

Thanks.

Nathan, there are plenty of wines in the sub $20 and sub $15 segments, fewer in the sub$10, and none are sub $5 as far as I can recall.

This represents a decisive entry into the 95-100 category by Argentina, a quantum jump into the big leagues. Reflecting a terrific job done over the last ten years, certainly in terms of overall quality and cost/benefit but, most of all, in the development of a specific and local wine personality. Congratulations!

Oswaldo,

Without disputing the effort being put forth by Argentine vintners and their multinational consultants, do you think the sudden jump in scoring has anything to do with the reviewer? He is beginnng to develop quite a track record for making high-scoring splashes in his debut reports--witness his prior efforts on Spain, Chile, Washington State and Australia.

Joe,

Im not Oswaldo, but here are my thoughts on your question. Its not only WA that praised Argentine wines... if you follow the reviews of James Molesworth over at Wine Spectator, you will also see great improvement in scores for these wines year after year. Check out what Decanter Magazine has been saying over the years, and also there you will see a good number of 4 and 5 star wines. The same can be said about other European & Scandinavian wine magazines.... even the owner/coordinator of the UK Wine Forum is now giving many Argentine wines rave reviews.

Its up to each wine lover to calibrate his/her own palate to that of the wine critic he/she chooses to follow, but IMO the sources quoted above each have their style and palate and all of them seem to agree that the quality of the wines from Argentina has been showing great improvement.

[David M. Bueker]

Wholesale listing of all the wines and scores is not fair use. This should be removed.

[Robin Garr]

Wholesale listing of all the wines and scores is not fair use. This should be removed.

Actually (see recent FLDG discussion about recipes), a mere enumeration of a list is not a copyright issue. It's not a matter of "fair use" at all; it falls under a different exemption, as would the ingredient listing of a recipe - or names from a telephone directory - both of which have been clearly defined as non-copyright in theory and in practice.

Miller's notes on the wines would indeed be copyright, and I do agree a data dump of all the wines and TNs that extensive would be an issue. (Although in the case of Parker, Spectator and even Tanzer (etc) notes, I sometimes wonder if the copyright holders have opened the door to wide copying by declining to object to the widespread use of "shelf talkers" without permission or remuneration. There's a reason why places like Gallo and McDonald's so aggressively defend their marks - if you don't consistently defend it, you lose it.)

There are two issues that arise whenever someone posts information that someone else has created and charges for.

The first, is whether or not copying it is illegals and violates copyright. I can't give an ironclad legal opinion on this (though I believe it does constitute a violation) and will leave you to think about it.

The second, is whether it violates the rather flexible guidelines of common decency. In this case my answer is yes, I think it does.

Parker sells his opinions, and for a large audience (even though we may pity them and say that they should step up and pay more attention to his review than to the score) the score is the greatest value they derive from the material he sells. You have just (presumably) bought one copy of his publication and replicated a great deal of information that he charges for. It is no different than buying a book, scanning it, and then posting it on the Internet. It is theft from th author.

Illegal or not, I find it distasteful, and I am sorry to see it here.

Nathan, there are plenty of wines in the sub $20 and sub $15 segments, fewer in the sub$10, and none are sub $5 as far as I can recall.

Yeah, but anything in particular?

Like a 93 point wine for $7.99?

Wholesale listing of all the wines and scores is not fair use. This should be removed.

David... this information is being published all over the place... Wines of Argentina, the organization that helped put together the tasting that Jay Miller conducted and which was the basis for these scores has had press releases with the scores... its public information. FWIW, Im a subscriber to the Wine Advocate, so I didnt "steal" these scores, Im a paying subscriptor.

[David M. Bueker]

Wholesale listing of all the wines and scores is not fair use. This should be removed.

David... this information is being published all over the place... Wines of Argentina, the organization that helped put together the tasting that Jay Miller conducted and which was the basis for these scores has had press releases with the scores... its public information. FWIW, Im a subscriber to the Wine Advocate, so I didnt "steal" these scores, Im a paying subscriptor.

Just because they published it doesn't make it ok, unless the received a release to do so.

And you paying doesn ot give you the right to put it out for public consumption.

This is no different than file sharing of copyrighted music.

There are two issues that arise whenever someone posts information that someone else has created and charges for.

The first, is whether or not copying it is illegals and violates copyright. I can't give an ironclad legal opinion on this (though I believe it does constitute a violation) and will leave you to think about it.

The second, is whether it violates the rather flexible guidelines of common decency. In this case my answer is yes, I think it does.

Parker sells his opinions, and for a large audience (even though we may pity them and say that they should step up and pay more attention to his review than to the score) the score is the greatest value they derive from the material he sells. You have just (presumably) bought one copy of his publication and replicated a great deal of information that he charges for. It is no different than buying a book, scanning it, and then posting it on the Internet. It is theft from th author.

Illegal or not, I find it distasteful, and I am sorry to see it here.

Dear Mr. Spohn,

Thank you very much for candid opinions not only on my taste... but also please receive a most special thank-you for your judgement on my "common decency". Im somewhat at a loss when I try to evaluate what gives you the right to issue these opinions... but nevertheless, I thank you for your public display of your own "decency" in issuing your summary judgements.

Despite my thanks, I must tell you that I take great offense at the fact that you are calling me a thief.

I dont think of myself as one, for the reasons that Ive explained in an above post....

I congratulate you on the great contribution that your comments about my persona and this thread have added to this Bulletin Board.... its things like this that really make this place great.

Yours sincerely,
Alejandro Audisio

Wholesale listing of all the wines and scores is not fair use. This should be removed.

David... this information is being published all over the place... Wines of Argentina, the organization that helped put together the tasting that Jay Miller conducted and which was the basis for these scores has had press releases with the scores... its public information. FWIW, Im a subscriber to the Wine Advocate, so I didnt "steal" these scores, Im a paying subscriptor.

Just because they published it doesn't make it ok, unless the received a release to do so.

And you paying doesn ot give you the right to put it out for public consumption.

This is no different than file sharing of copyrighted music.

David... I stand by my initial opinion that this is information that is already of public domain. If you think differently, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Wines of Argentina, the organization that helped put together the tasting that Jay Miller conducted and which was the basis for these scores has had press releases with the scores... its public information.

I searched their website, and I searched the newswires, and I couldn't find it.

Do you have anything with the pricing information?

Despite my thanks, I must tell you that I take great offense at the fact that you are calling me a thief.

Alejandro Audisio

My post wasn't done to cause offence but to state my thoughts on the matter (FYI, I don't need anyone to 'give me the right' to post opinions here). I attempted to do it in a way that would have allowed you to say something like "Oh, I hadn't thought about that side of it, and I'm not sure I agree with you, but I will remove the material to be safe".

You didn't do that, instead you took offence. That's too bad.

[Robin Garr]

David... the scores have been removed.

Alex, thanks for clearing the air by doing that. Although I do not share my colleagues' concern, for somewhat different reasons (I believe the mere listing of winery names and score numbers is not copyrightable, AND if it were, I believe that both the Parker folks and Wine Spectator, among others, abandon any such claim by their wide encouragement of wine-shop shelf "talkers" without requiring permission or compensation, I'm just as glad to see this issue resolved by your simple gesture.

I'm sorry, too, that Bill's comments angered you. I don't believe he meant it to be taken personally.

Shall we shake and have a group hug?

Here is the list of wines scored by Jay Miller in the last issue of The Wine Advocate.

Vintage / Wine / Score / Maturity

Removed since this seems to bother some folks....

What do the scores mean anyway? Googling for "Argentina Wine Advocate Scores" brings up lots of 'Wine Advocate' scores and they are all over the place - not a list, but definitely plenty of scores. I think the scores are most important for the wineries, who can use them in their publicity - and for the retailers, who can use the scores to promote the wines.

You should read this article by Tyler Coleman who tasted some wines of Argentina with the new Wine Advocate reviewer - quite probably the wines for issue of the Wine Advocate that spurred this thread.
Decanting the critic: Tasting with Dr. Jay Miller, the right hand of Robert Parker (right click to open in new window)

The wines were tasted at the Argentine Consulate in Manhattan and there are some interesting insights into how the tasting was conducted (not blind and by producer not varietal). There's a Jay Miller response which is interesting. He confirms that this is how he always tastes and indicates that this particular tasting is only part of his review and that he would also be visiting Argentina to taste at wineries. But, according to a response dated Dec 23rd, the day after the Wine Advocate came out, he hasn't yet been on an 'official wine visit' to Argentina but has been invited to an event in February. Perhaps another Wines of Argentina review issue will be coming out.

David... the scores have been removed.

Alex, thanks for clearing the air by doing that. Although I do not share my colleagues' concern, for somewhat different reasons (I believe the mere listing of winery names and score numbers is not copyrightable, AND if it were, I believe that both the Parker folks and Wine Spectator, among others, abandon any such claim by their wide encouragement of wine-shop shelf "talkers" without requiring permission or compensation, I'm just as glad to see this issue resolved by your simple gesture.

I'm sorry, too, that Bill's comments angered you. I don't believe he meant it to be taken personally.

Robin, this is my last post on this thread and on this incident, but I dont see this issue as resolved and I fail to see how else I can take Sphon's post.... when someone falsely accused you of being a thief, I dont know of any other way than to take it personally. I was not aware that this boards policy was to allow members to freely insult others, and Im sorry to say that Im surprised as to how you have handled this situation in your role as moderator/administrator/etc. It appears that this fellow Sponh is allowed to pass judgement and insult me on a matter that is at least debatable and he gets away with it.... but yet it appears that he is the authority on decency and good taste...?

I find it funny that Sphon is allowed to insult under the cover of "presenting his opinion".... after this incident, I certainly have mine about him but this reminds me something I was taught many years ago... sometimes its better not to say anything and let the facts speak for themselves.

[Robin Garr]

sometimes its better not to say anything and let the facts speak for themselves.

In this instance, I don't think you come off at all badly by taking this high road.

For the record, the last thing I want to do is to be jumping around with my Po-lice hat on, scolding people and reciting The Law and censoring threads. Better when folks take a deep breath and sort things out. I didn't like Bill's choice of words either, and I've told him so.

End of story, end of thread, I hope!