Aging Savennieres (Chenin Blanc)

What is the recommended drinking window for a Chenin Blanc from the Loire? Domaine du Closel is the specific producer.

My unhelpful answer is that it depends on the producer and Closel is one of which I have little experience.

Traditional Savennières often goes into an extended dumb period after about a year in bottles drinking well. "Modern" producers aim to avoid this. We had a bit of a discussion on this subject and I think someone gave some names when I wrote a WTN on a Château d'Epiré 96 which was the first in a stash which was at last opening up.

At a tasting of Domaine du Closel wines at Chambers Street two years ago I liked and bought a case of Savennières Clos du Papillon 2004. The first few bottles were uninspiring (bright, but without much depth of flavor), but the last two began to show some real class, perhaps because instead of opening and serving immediately, somewhat chilled, I opened them two hours before and left them out of the fridge, breathing in a cooling sleeve. After that I put them back in the fridge with a stopper until time to serve. Chambers Street, who know their stuff, say these will age 10+ years. Now that they have moved out of the "mistake" category, I look forward to opening one a year and tracking their development.

Closel makes some wonderfully ageworthy Savennieres. Charles recently opened a bottle of '96 Cuvee Speciale and it had years of life left in it.
Aging and vintage are related though so without knowing the specific wine it's harder to venture a guess on how long to hold it.

Aging and vintage are related though so without knowing the specific wine it's harder to venture a guess on how long to hold it.

That's the key. I drank all my '98 and '99 Savennieres, and all my '00 except one Baumard Trie Speciale. But still have '96 and '97s (though most of latter are fully mature), and don't plan on most 2002s for a while.

Thanks, guys. This was a 2005. Not the Clos du Papillon-the less expensive bottling. I guess there is no hurry here.

Do not hold on too long, my `88s were shot!!!!!

It's hard to make drinking window predictions about Closel as their wine maker changed a few years ago, and these days many Savennieres are being made in a style that is more approachable not long after release, contrary to Savennieres' reputation for being unpleasant early in life but a great ager. Last year I asked the Closel wine maker's daughter what they thought the aging potential was for their delightful 2002 Papillon, mentioning that Pierre Rovani wrote that he thought it would start going down hill after about five years, and the answer I got from the young lady was they really didn't know as they haven't enough experience with the new style of wine making.

I guess I'll never know the answer as the 2002 was so delicious early on that I've drunk all mine up. The 2003, the product of a hotter year, is another matter, but again I wouldn't dare predict where it is going.

Yes, there are some new ideas in savennieres, so it's hard to know how the new style will age (e.g., cooler, shoter fermentation, use of new oak). But the traditional forms I always throught were rather like german reisling in that they would drink well 2-3 years after release and then go into a rather ugly (much more so than reisling) phase for 4-6 years or so. In this phase, they taste oxidized and very closed. Then they will blossom into clasic aged savenierres, with lots of minerals, wet wool, apple, etc. White winews from the northern rhone often go through the same process.

But the other isue, which one other person mentioned, is that people tend to serve savennieres too cold and too soon. Opening a bottle the morning of or even the night before is usually a good idea, as is drinking closer to cellar temperature than fridge temperature. You'll be amazed at the difference lots of decanting and warmer serving temps can make with savennieres!

What is the recommended drinking window for a Chenin Blanc from the Loire? Domaine du Closel is the specific producer.

The 2002 is not in a good place right now, if my recent bottles are any guide. I haven't checked in on the 1996 Cuvée Spéciale yet. As others mention, it's a bit of a crapshoot with this producer lately given all the changes.

I don't know myself, but have three different vineyard bottlings from this producer (all the 1999 vintage) and I'm figuring it's but a short wait to 2009, so might arrange to drink them one evening with friends.

regards

Ian

My only recent Savennières experiment was a Baumard 2002, which I opened, poured out an ounce to mix in some air, then returned to the cellar (cork back in bottle) for 4 days. At that point, it started to drink well, but it positively sang on day six! YMMV.

What is the recommended drinking window for a Chenin Blanc from the Loire? Domaine du Closel is the specific producer.

For their 2005s, I think the sage advice of "Drink Now and Later" would be most appropriate.

My only recent Savennières experiment was a Baumard 2002, which I opened, poured out an ounce to mix in some air, then returned to the cellar (cork back in bottle) for 4 days. At that point, it started to drink well, but it positively sang on day six! YMMV.

I appreciate the report on the '02 Baumard as I intend to get a case of that wine. At least I am if it is the entry level wine that you speak of. Here in Lexington Ky, the entry level goes for about $23-24 per so I really don't like to gamble on a case of anything without some idea of what is in the bottle. Brad Kane has already told me to buy 2002 and now I have your word too. so sounds like a no brainer at 12 bottles for the price of 10. Just thinking though, since I have lived in parts of 8 decades, do I really want a case of wine that I might need to wait 6-10 years to enjoy at it's apex? gotta think of that too I suppose.

I appreciate the report on the '02 Baumard as I intend to get a case of that wine. At least I am if it is the entry level wine that you speak of..

One would imagine that the entry level wine would certainly be a better candidate than the Clos du Papillon.

My only recent Savennières experiment was a Baumard 2002, which I opened, poured out an ounce to mix in some air, then returned to the cellar (cork back in bottle) for 4 days. At that point, it started to drink well, but it positively sang on day six! YMMV.

I appreciate the report on the '02 Baumard as I intend to get a case of that wine. At least I am if it is the entry level wine that you speak of. Here in Lexington Ky, the entry level goes for about $23-24 per so I really don't like to gamble on a case of anything without some idea of what is in the bottle. Brad Kane has already told me to buy 2002 and now I have your word too. so sounds like a no brainer at 12 bottles for the price of 10. Just thinking though, since I have lived in parts of 8 decades, do I really want a case of wine that I might need to wait 6-10 years to enjoy at it's apex? gotta think of that too I suppose.

For once in his life Brad is correct. I personally don't check vintage charts regarding my wine purchases but an actuary table, it seems more realistic. But I still buy some wine here and there anyway.

For once in his life Brad is correct. I personally don't check vintage charts regarding my wine purchases but an actuary table, it seems more realistic. But I still buy some wine here and there anyway.

Hey Lou, I guess with you joining in on the same page as BK, it means I have hit a home run!

My only recent Savennières experiment was a Baumard 2002, which I opened, poured out an ounce to mix in some air, then returned to the cellar (cork back in bottle) for 4 days. At that point, it started to drink well, but it positively sang on day six! YMMV.

I appreciate the report on the '02 Baumard as I intend to get a case of that wine. At least I am if it is the entry level wine that you speak of. Here in Lexington Ky, the entry level goes for about $23-24 per so I really don't like to gamble on a case of anything without some idea of what is in the bottle. Brad Kane has already told me to buy 2002 and now I have your word too. so sounds like a no brainer at 12 bottles for the price of 10. Just thinking though, since I have lived in parts of 8 decades, do I really want a case of wine that I might need to wait 6-10 years to enjoy at it's apex? gotta think of that too I suppose.

Bob, it was indeed the Baumard entry level 2002 Savennières, and it goes for $21 before discount here. Superb wine, and drinkable now with great pleasure with extended airing. I'm sure that it will continue to develop and even improve for at least a decade, based on bottles of earlier vintages that I've drunk, but it's so bloody good now that I don't see any real downside to buying a case, even if you have 'lived in parts of 8 decades', other than not getting to all of it! So, live it up!

On a side note, a bottle of the 2005 Baumard Clos Ste. Catherine, as part of an extended experiment, is just now starting to slide downhill after having been opened on December 14th! We've been taking small samples every few days since the 14th ultimo, then replacing the cork and just leaving it in the cooler at work...no gas, no vacu-vin, nothing...an awesome display of longevity, development, structure, class, fruit, ad infinitum. Mind-blowing wine, and you might consider grabbing a bottle of this as well, but if you intend to drink it in a more normal fashion, you might consider opening it up about 5-8 days ahead of consumption date!

In this and other threads, I see comments that suggest that the longer a wine lasts after opening, the more pedigree/class/quality (or something to that effect) it has. While this makes intuitive sense, and the benefits to the gradual drinker are obvious, I wonder if anyone can suggest a more scientific or objective rationale behind this. While I like the idea, the potential problem with it, if we were to take it to extremes (just to be glib, or provocative), would be that we could end all the arguments (and all the fun) about which are the best wines in the world simply by having a contest to see which ones withstand oxidation best.

In this and other threads, I see comments that suggest that the longer a wine lasts after opening, the more pedigree/class/quality (or something to that effect) it has. While this makes intuitive sense, and the benefits to the gradual drinker are obvious, I wonder if anyone can suggest a more scientific or objective rationale behind this. While I like the idea, the potential problem with it, if we were to take it to extremes (just to be glib, or provocative), would be that we could end all the arguments (and all the fun) about which are the best wines in the world simply by having a contest to see which ones withstand oxidation best.

Osvaldo, I don't mean to imply that the mere fact of the wine's resistance to oxidation is indicative of superior quality, but that the wine's balance was so close to perfect that it was able to evolve and improve for days and then weeks without any single component (acid, fruit, texture, structure, minerality) degrading before the others. I find this to be rare and fascinating.

I recently had a bottle of the 93 Closel Papillion. It's in a good place right now, but no hurry to drink up.