Do Guests Deserve Good Wine?

Hey everyone

I have no doubt this topic has come up several times before but it seems like a good one for a friendly Friday troll.

As noted in earlier posts, I recently got a bunch of good wine of storage, some of which I was worried may have gone beyond its sell-by date and so have felt compelled to open. But I haven't been drinking much of late during the week: just been real hard at work, got the two kids of different ages, early morning starts, been doing a lot of sports... those who've been there will know what I mean.

So, I've been perfectly happy to open good bottles when guests have been over, especially during the recent holiday seasons. And yet, now that I'm looking at my hastily-scribbled notes from rapidly-consumed wines and accompanying depleted stocks, I'm realizing how little of this wine was really appreciated by anyone else. Most guests were of the "I drink all red wine" variety and a couple others of the "If Tony's serving it, it must be good," which I know is a compliment of a kind but doesn't necessarily merit the sheer quanity of good wine they downed at such a pace.

I've always been of the line that good wine deserves good company - I have no intent of opening a beautiful bottle just for myself. I'm really happy to share - it always comes back to me in other ways. But I'm starting to wonder if I don't need a formula: perhaps I open one good bottle for the guests and then move on to the cheap stuff? (Or vice versa.) I'd love to know how other people handle these situations. (It's worth pointing out that we moved out of the City a couple of years back and my new crop of really wonderful friends are of the $10 and under variety. Maybe I need to advertise for a wine group?)

Oddly enough, the only real, true appreciation I felt was at a Boxing Day party, when the hosts ran out of wine early enough that I drove home, picked up what little cheap wine I had, brought back two bottles of Gigondas too, figuring what the hell, may as well drink them and, later that evening as the bottles were warming up near the stove, in walked a couple who said, literally: "Wow, Gigondas, our favorite wine!" (They were from the CIty: don't know if that explains anything or not!) This was also, significantly, about the only time that one of the really good bottles lasted a while: this particular couple seemed real happy to savor the wine, rather than swill it.

Comments, thoughts, guests for dinner?

Tony

My trollish response is that I don't have any (intentionally - we all miss now and again) non-good wine in the cellar. I open what best suits what we're eating (or not eating).

I also generally tell guests that I've opened something I think will work well, but I've got plenty of other choices and would be happy to open something else.

Oh, and open a beautiful bottle by yourself sometime. You deserve it.

Cheers,

Dave

Tony--

This isn't my original idea, and I'm not sure precisely who I should attribute it to (Dale? Cynthia?), but one approach is to buy or stock good QPRs that might please geeks and goobers alike. Red example: Familie Iche Heretique. Sparking example: Gruet. White example: CRB Sauvignon Touraine or Pepiere Muscadet.

Personally, I have a hard time opening prize bottles (not necessarily pricey ones, but perhaps ones I've brought back from travel, or ones I've aged, or ones I'd otherwise have a hard time replacing) if I'm pretty sure they won't be appreciated.

Tony,
I do not really distiguish between guest except I tend not to open "Great Stuff" unless there are people there that understand wine. What I really am doing is opening wines that my wife and I would like to drink and that goes with the food being served. 5% of my wine is inexpensive and is used to cook with or open when you just want one glass and will be cooking with the remainder the next night. 5% of my wine is the super stuff and I tend to open that when people are around that really appreciate it. The remaining 90% is all good stuff, hopefully, has zero value once it gets to the cellar, and will be opened any time for anyone.
Walt

All of what I open up is stuff that I really enjoy drinking. Recently Perusini's Ribolla Gialla and Cab F, Tempier Rosé and Muscadet have all gone down well. The fact that many of my friends aren't geeky enough to talk about wine on-line and claim not to "understand" wine doesn't mean that they don't appreciate good stuff. I have very few "top" bottles (and all of them much too young to open). I think those I will open with my friends who happen to be hard core geeks. So yes, I serve what I think is excellent wine even to guests who claim not to understand wine.

-O

It depends on the guest list. I'm fortunate to have a lot of friends (even among the non-geeks) who appreciate wine. I do save my most treasured bottles for those who appreciate most (the true geeks), but have lots of other friends who can appreciate a good aged Bordeaux, or 1er cru Burg, etc. Tomorrow we're having two couples to dinner, 3 out of 4 know the difference between village, 1er, and GC Burgs (just as an example of some wine knowledge). Not geeks, but appreciative. I'll probably open one "serious" bottle, plus a few nice ones (I guess subconsciously I'm thinking serious is worth over $50, nice is $20-50, value is under $20). What depends on menu, but as Roger is German and Alex French, probably at least one from each country.

If people are more "I like red wine", I still tend to open nice bottles, but less likely to open aged prized bottles. Though it is sometimes fun to open a birthyear wine for someone who has never had. I don't tend to serve value wines at dinner parties unless I know people truly don't care. The one exception is one friend who has a tendency to grab bottle of whatever he understands to be the most prized bottles and pour a big Bordeaux or Burg stem half full, gulp it down in 3 minutes, and sit glassy-eyed. Now I open a bottle of Les Heretiques, Texier CdR, or a ripe vintage Cotes de Bourg and set bottle at his end.

I'm a rather solitary bachelor, so there's no chance of opening a bottle with a "wife" or anything like that And, I don't really like drinking anything by myself. So, most of the wine I open with friends, typically at dinners or special events. I have started a minor "tradition" of "wine parties" which are basically potlucks. I bring most of the wine, but friends contribute food and their own bottles. I won't always bring the most "serious" wines to a big party like a Christmas dinner where wine is not the focus, but I will try and bring what I like to drink, not BV Coastal. The wine-oriented parties and smaller dinner parties generally merit nice wine or a "theme."

Luckily, many of my friends appreciate good wine. I get many "free" fancy dinners (well...not free, but my collecting mania has already had the sunk costs) when I bring the wine.

You can turn it around to a Socratic question:

Does Tony Fletcher Deserve Good Wine When He Is A Guest?

Or, what if you went to someone else's place, someone who knew you only indirectly and did not know of your wine jones, and you saw they had a pretty impressive of wines...and what they served you was plonk, because they didn't know if you would be able to properly appreciate their good taste for themselves? (Now, if they knew you and knew about your wine jones, and served you the plonk anyway....wouldn't that be a sign! )

Mind you, though I sound holier than thou, I don't always spring open the rack and pull out the best and rarest for anyone who walks through the door. But neither do I serve the thinnest vinegar or the questionable bottle for those I think can't tell the difference. Maybe they can. And maybe, if they haven't before, I can help them have an epiphany and discover that wine really is a nifty thing and well worth the boring discussions we have to endure to indulge.

But mainly my operative principle is: whatever I open for them, I'll have to drink as well. And I do tend to treat myself well when I can.

I try to subscribe to the Len Evans’ Theory of Capacity which was recently listed by Brian Croser, Australian viticulturalist and Evans’ protégé.

They are
1) There is an awful lot of wine in the world, but there is also a lot of awful wine.
2) No sensible person drinks to excess, therefore any one person can only drink a certain amount in a lifetime.
3) There are countless flavours, nuances, shades of wine; endless varieties, regions, styles. You have neither the time nor the capacity to try them all.
4) To make the most of the time left to you, you must start by calculating your future capacity. One bottle a day is 365 bottles a year. If your life expectancy is another 30 years there are only 10,000-odd bottles ahead of you.
5) People who say “You can’t drink the good stuff all of the time” are talking rubbish. You must drink good stuff all the time. Every time you drink a bottle of inferior wine, it’s like smashing a superior bottle against the wall. The pleasure is lost forever - you can’t get that bottle back.
6) There are people who build up huge cellars, most of which they have no hope of drinking. They are foolish in overestimating their capacity but they err on the right side and their friends love them.
7) There are also people who don’t want to drink good wine and are happy with the cheapies. I forgive them. There are others who are content with beer and spirits. I can’t worry about everybody.
8} Wine is not meant to be enjoyed for its own sake; it is the key to love and laughter with friends, to the enjoyment of food, beauty and humour and art and music. Its rewards are far beyond its cost.
9) What part is wine of your life? Ten percent? Ergo, 10 percent of your income should be spent on wine.
10) These principles should be applied to other phases of life. A disciple kissed a beautiful young lady and she demurred. He was aghast and said, “Don’t get the wrong idea. I’ve worked out I can only make love another 1343 times. I’m bloody sure I’m not wasting one on you.”

Now just because I subscribe to this theory does not mean that I have cellar full of first growth/grand cru wines. But what wines I do have I share irrespective of the wine knowledge of guests. Why should I drink inferior wine just because my guests might not go gaga over a great wine. Its my capaciity to appreciate the wine that is important.

Mike

I'm firmly in the "it depends" camp.

How many guests and who are they?

Larger gatherings get decent QPR wines. As we talked about in Lizbeth's party thread, I don't do the Richard Nixon bit. So, it behooves me to find things I like that fit the bill... er, so to speak.

I'm much more likely to serve something special/geekier/spendier to a gathering with fewer people, because I can more readily afford it. This is true even if I don't know if they are wine people or not.

Now, an intimate dinner with people I know will really appreciate the wine? Not even a question, they get the best I have or can afford every time.

I try to subscribe to the Len Evans’ Theory of Capacity which was recently listed by Brian Croser, Australian viticulturalist and Evans’ protégé.

They are
1) There is an awful lot of wine in the world, but there is also a lot of awful wine.
2) No sensible person drinks to excess, therefore any one person can only drink a certain amount in a lifetime.
3) There are countless flavours, nuances, shades of wine; endless varieties, regions, styles. You have neither the time nor the capacity to try them all.
4) To make the most of the time left to you, you must start by calculating your future capacity. One bottle a day is 365 bottles a year. If your life expectancy is another 30 years there are only 10,000-odd bottles ahead of you.
5) People who say “You can’t drink the good stuff all of the time” are talking rubbish. You must drink good stuff all the time. Every time you drink a bottle of inferior wine, it’s like smashing a superior bottle against the wall. The pleasure is lost forever - you can’t get that bottle back.
6) There are people who build up huge cellars, most of which they have no hope of drinking. They are foolish in overestimating their capacity but they err on the right side and their friends love them.
7) There are also people who don’t want to drink good wine and are happy with the cheapies. I forgive them. There are others who are content with beer and spirits. I can’t worry about everybody.
8} Wine is not meant to be enjoyed for its own sake; it is the key to love and laughter with friends, to the enjoyment of food, beauty and humour and art and music. Its rewards are far beyond its cost.
9) What part is wine of your life? Ten percent? Ergo, 10 percent of your income should be spent on wine.
10) These principles should be applied to other phases of life. A disciple kissed a beautiful young lady and she demurred. He was aghast and said, “Don’t get the wrong idea. I’ve worked out I can only make love another 1343 times. I’m bloody sure I’m not wasting one on you.”

Now just because I subscribe to this theory does not mean that I have cellar full of first growth/grand cru wines. But what wines I do have I share irrespective of the wine knowledge of guests. Why should I drink inferior wine just because my guests might not go gaga over a great wine. Its my capaciity to appreciate the wine that is important.

Mike

Mike,
I love it. Think I will apply this to everything.
Walt

It depends on the guest list. I'm fortunate to have a lot of friends (even among the non-geeks) who appreciate wine. Tomorrow we're having two couples to dinner, 3 out of 4 know the difference between village, 1er, and GC Burgs (just as an example of some wine knowledge). Not geeks, but appreciative.

Dale, up here they wouldn't just be geeks, they'd be Masters of Wine!

But mainly my operative principle is: whatever I open for them, I'll have to drink as well. And I do tend to treat myself well when I can.

Well said Hoke! My friends always benefit from my selfishness.

But mainly my operative principle is: whatever I open for them, I'll have to drink as well. And I do tend to treat myself well when I can.

Well said Hoke! My friends always benefit from my selfishness.

I hate it when Hoke says something Itotally agree with so I will refine it slightly. "My wife and I have to drink it and I must treat her well." I take more grief from my wife than anyone else on wines served. If she does not like it she complains and then goes and gets a glass of water. She has rejected some wines that I thought were pretty good.
Walt

She has rejected some wines that I thought were pretty good.
Walt

My wife hates Cabernet Franc, one of my favorite wines. More for me I guess . (un?)Luckily, she loves Champagne and Riesling. Less for me I guess .

She has rejected some wines that I thought were pretty good.
Walt

My wife hates Cabernet Franc, one of my favorite wines. More for me I guess . (un?)Luckily, she loves Champagne and Riesling. Less for me I guess .

Bill,
Interesting about your wife's palate. I like most everything but do not drink or buy CF, OZ Shiraz and not crazy about soave. Other than that pretty much everything goes unless it is just way over the top.
Walt

1. IF the guests are wine geeks, we all know the answer to that.

2. If the guests are non-winies, as someone already said, it depends on the number of folks one is entertaining. If there are 20 non-wine folks coming over, then I'm going to go out and buy some lower end stuff that I like to drink too but usually don't have sitting around (for example, Castle Rock Edna Valley Chard which has to be one of the best sub $10 Chards I have tried). I wouldn't serve others wine I wouldn't drink. But if there are lots of people, that seems a reasonable way to go.

2 If it is a small gathering (say 6-8) of non-wine geeks, then I open what I think goes with the food (which, whoever we are serving, we always try to do at the top of our game). Why? Well, at the risk of sounding pedantic, it's a way to introduce them to good wines. Let me tell you a story.

When we first took my newest mother-in-law wine taasting, the only thing she would drink without turning up her nose were wines with RS. Any wine with RS. But we have lunch with her at her restaurant every Wednesday, and I began bringing easy-to-like whites w/o RS (Viognier, for example, or a dry Riesling) for all of us to share. Then I started bringing more fruit forward, but not sweet, reds, like some CA Pinots or Zin. Well, let me tell you, now she is still a non-wine geek, but she knows the difference between good and bad wine. She still likes RS, but on dessert wines, not on wines that `should' be dry. She has no training, but has learned from drinking nice wines week in and week out what is good and what isn't. When something is not quite right (maybe a bit oxidized or some VA) she tells me `this one isn't so good.' So.. her palate has been trained. She would never order wine at a restaurant or probably buy from a store. She asks us to do that for her. But she has come to appreciate wine. And little by little, one of my brothers-in-law, who is a beer drinker, has shifted from beer to wine when he eats with us. He too has come to really enjoy the experience, and I'm happy to pour good to very good wines to him too (no, no Latour... yet...). And .. let me leave you with this story that happened a couple of nights back.. .

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I got home a bit late last nite for a family dinner. I quickly popped a Beckmen Grenache Rose to get every thing started (this was a perfect wine with the cheese and salami and chip starters).

As we sat down to eat, my wife suggested I pull a Pinot from the cellar. I headed out and grabbed an Arcadian that I could see near the top of the loose bottles in the cellar. I'm thinking it is the 2005 SLH I bought recently, a mid-$20s wine. Fine. Should be perfect for this mixed group of wine geeks (my wife and I) and family who have learned to enjoy good wine but aren't obsessive.

I open it, it is lovely from the get-go for everyone. I mean really really good. Really good. The bottle goes down very fast. So.. off to the cellar I go to get another. As I'm opening it, I do a double take. What I'm opening is the 2004 Arcadian PISONI, definitely not a mid-$20s wine!! Holy crap. I rush to check the bottle we've just finished.. and yep.. it too is a '04 Pisoni!! Well, at that point, what can I do. I think about not serving the second bottle, but the first had been so damned good, and everyone was so enamored, I thought, this is what wine is about. The moment. And we drank the second bottle too! and enjoyed it even more!

2004 Arcadian Pinot Noir Pisoni Vineyard - USA, California, Central Coast, Santa Lucia Highlands (1/8/2008)

Great elegance, not showing in any way 15.9% alc. Nice cherry/cola/baking spice flavors and aroma on a leanish frame that carried itself well with acidity that is linked to the fruit in a seamless way that simply made this wonderful to have with somewhat blackened mahi mahi and spaghetti in a cream and chile poblana sauce. (93 pts.)

I wonder how many of us pull the wrong wine, don't realize it til later and then think, `hey, that turned out pretty damned good!!'

one friend who has a tendency to grab bottle of whatever he understands to be the most prized bottles and pour a big Bordeaux or Burg stem half full, gulp it down in 3 minutes, and sit glassy-eyed. Now I open a bottle of Les Heretiques, Texier CdR, or a ripe vintage Cotes de Bourg and set bottle at his end.

I guess this is what I was talking about: people who know you're pouring decent wine but knock it back so fast and furious you wonder if they wouldn't prefer a beer... Perhaps my thread should have been called "Do Glugging Guests Deserve Good Wine?"

Those who know me know I love to share - it was such a thrill at that Boxing day party to share the Gigondas with a couple who know the appellation - but I started this thread, apart from playing DEvils' Advocate, because I was excited to get some good wines out of storage but now realize I got a little carried away with opening them for people who would have drunk (and indeed do drink) Yellowtail. So, based partly on ideas and comments above but also just on good common sense, I think I'm going to develop a new strategy: Open one bottle of "good" wine for dinner guests whose tastes I'm not sure about. If it gets glugged, we move on to the QPRs - and yes, I should keep many more of them in stock. But if it inspires epiphanies or considered discussion and enthusiasm, we keep opening the good stuff.

BTW, when I say "good" - and again, I should have probably chosen a more qualified subject heading - it should be noted that I subscribe entirely to the "Life is too short to drink bad wine" camp. But "good" in this case means pricey and/or cellared. Certainly, I would never EVER serve something I was not willing to try/enjoy for myself. If someone gifts me a really bad bottle of wine, I hold on to it and take it to one of the many parties around here where it will be in very good company and usually take a quick taste to confirm my worst fears!

Cheers

Tony

... I'm realizing how little of this wine was really appreciated by anyone else. Most guests were of the "I drink all red wine" variety and a couple others of the "If Tony's serving it, it must be good," which I know is a compliment of a kind but doesn't necessarily merit the sheer quanity of good wine they downed at such a pace.

I agree with the points made by the previous replies, so I will just leave you with an prime example of the behavior cited above. At an affair I attended over a year ago, I saw a young fellow grab a $60+ bottle of wine, and proceed to fill his wine glass to within several millimeters of the rim ... just like some cheesy restaurants do with mediocre wine to make uninformed customers think they are getting a good deal. I just wanted to cry.

Since I do not want to cry at my own parties or dinners, I put much as much thought into matching the wines with the guests as I do with matching the wines with the food.

-- Clark

what if you went to someone else's place, someone who knew you only indirectly and did not know of your wine jones, and you saw they had a pretty impressive of wines...and what they served you was plonk, because they didn't know if you would be able to properly appreciate their good taste for themselves? .

Last year, while teaching in Barbados,I was invited to dinner at a patron's house. It was a small gathering of about eight people and some non-descript Chilean cab-sauv was served (warm). It was practically undrinkable. Later on in the evening the host showed me around his house, including his wine refrigerator, which contained some first rate Italian and 1st growth Bdx's, so we started to talk about wine, especially how difficult it was to conserve wine in such a climate. (He had to keep most of his wine in a rented controlled cellar, as the salt air corroded his wine refrigerator very quickly). He appologised for the plonk he was serving but told me this story; he used to serve very good wine to his guests, regardless of their ability to appreciate it, but stopped when he saw one of his guests emptying a Cos-d'Estournel into a flower pot in favor of a cheap Chiliean.

I must admit that, while not having a cellar full of 1st cru wines, I am more likely to open a bottle based upon who is at the table (as well as what is served) and what they may appreciate. That is not to say I drink swill with non-appreciative guests, but I may open up a wine that does not require too much contemplation or concentration.

Simon

As it turns out, we had guests over last night, and the coin was flipped somewhat: knowing they were coming to our house, they brought a pricey wine that they'd been gifted. (A 2006 The Prisoner, notes to follow.) This certainly proves something about the karma effect, and to some degree puts a dent in the reservations I expressed in my initial post.

Being that I would never serve bad wine anyway, I had already opened a good bottle that needed decanting. (A 1999 Cayron Gigondas, notes to follow.) We managed to get through them both, which surprised me a little bit. And both wines were widely appreciated by all of us, which was pleasing. One of the guests, the one not driving, was clearly still thirsty, and I managed to catch myself and stick to my new vow: I opened a La Vieille Ferme with a twist of a screw cap. The step down in quality was alarming, all the more so considering the similar grapes. It was the wine equivalent of going from watching Arsenal to watching Millwall. (QPR wines are great, but in an ideal world, you start out with them and work your way up in equality.) Still, it was a smart move: we only got through half the bottle at most. Before I started this thread, I think my instinct would have been to keep serving the "good" stuff because I was playing host and wanted to impress or just share, but I'm glad I called it quits when I did. I think that opening a third "good" wine that late in the evening would have been something of a waste.

Tony

As it turns out, we had guests over last night, and the coin was flipped somewhat: knowing they were coming to our house, they brought a pricey wine that they'd been gifted.

Maybe they read your post on the friggin' world wide web!

I get great pleasure from serving good wine to guests who may not be regular wine drinkers, provided that I see them actually take an interest in the wine at hand or comment on it in some positive and/or inquisitive way. For example, when I open a Châteauneuf-du-Pape or Madiran only to see someone grimace at the first sip and top the glass up with Coca Cola, then I generally re-evaluate the sort of wine that I will serve to that person in future.

Now, this is not necessarily a bleak situation - there are many tasty, enjoyable inexpensive wines out there that still deliver quality. In such cases I usually get something oaky and/or with a few degrees of residual sugar, like a late-harvest Ontario Vidal (sugar level around '4', for example), a Gallo of Sonoma Cab or maybe an Obikwa Shiraz - these wines are pretty much tasty to everyone, even those whom I know to be "rum-'n-Coke"/beer drinkers only. Even I like these wines now and then. Ergo, problem solved.

I like to think that all the wine I serve guests is at least good, some more than others, but I do serve a different style of wine to a group of non-geeks than I do when sharing with geeks.

My impression, true or false, is that most non-geeks prefer new world fruit-forward wines, and are really happy with a good Cal-Cab or similar, and would prefer that to an austere tannic Bdx. Gosh, most non-geeks like oaked Chardonnay too, and would prefer that to a nice clean Muscadet or a flinty Chablis. So for parties or functions with non-geeks, I give them what I think they would prefer, though I could never do a Yellowtail.

Dinner parties present more of a challenge, because the wine they may prefer - oaky Cal Cabs or Chardonnays - may not go nearly as well with food, so I generally end up with something that goes with the food, though - again for non-geeks - it is likely to be reasonably priced, perhaps a CdR Village wine, a $20 - $30 red or white burgundy, etc.

I save the aged old world stuff for friends who prefer that to new world wines, and for family members I am trying to educate on the finer things in life.