If it's Primitivo, why call it Zinfandel?

There is a press release at this location: Vintage Point Announces the Release of Layer Cake Primitivo, aka Zinfandel, a One Hundred Percent Primitivo From 100 Year Old Vines in Puglia, Italy: TTB Approved Label Features Primitivo as Zinfandel on Bottle.



For some reason which I can't put my finger on this article just didn't sit right with me. Was it the press release hype? Is is that, although genetically the same, Primitivo and Zinfandel are different and the piggybacking is somehow irritating? (Talk about contradicting myself.) Or have I just grown weary of reading about all those wines which will bring peace to our age?

I guess I'll just ignore it and move on.

How about the Californians who have started calling their Zinfandel, Primitivo? I know they claim they are using special Primitvio clones, but what the hay?

How about the Californians who have started calling their Zinfandel, Primitivo? I know they claim they are using special Primitvio clones, but what the hay?

Gee, I wonder then why we don't see any labels with Crljenak Kastelanski? That just rolls off the tongue, doesn't it? Maybe Calvin Klein can come out with its own CK wine label!?

Mondavi already has the CK label.

IIRC the Italians were banned from using Zinfandel as the grape variety - hence the PRIMITIVO aka zinfandel label.

(side swipe) Trade negotiations aren't about right or wrong, just who gets what out of each deal. Common sense would dictate 1 grape name, but common sense isn't the prime motivator.

IIRC the Italians were banned from using Zinfandel as the grape variety - hence the PRIMITIVO aka zinfandel label.

(side swipe) Trade negotiations aren't about right or wrong, just who gets what out of each deal. Common sense would dictate 1 grape name, but common sense isn't the prime motivator.

Aye, but the rub is that, although all three grapes are genetically identical, i.e. identical triplets as it were, there seems to be differences in their expression as wine. Maybe I'm just kidding myself, but Primitivo doesn't always taste like Zinfandel to me or even close to it. Power of suggestion? I'm not too proud to say I might be susceptible. And I've never had Crljenak Kastelanski. Still, it's as if the triplets were separated at birth and each went its own way.

IIRC the Italians were banned from using Zinfandel as the grape variety - hence the PRIMITIVO aka zinfandel label.

(side swipe) Trade negotiations aren't about right or wrong, just who gets what out of each deal. Common sense would dictate 1 grape name, but common sense isn't the prime motivator.

Aye, but the rub is that, although all three grapes are genetically identical, i.e. identical triplets as it were, there seems to be differences in their expression as wine. Maybe I'm just kidding myself, but Primitivo doesn't always taste like Zinfandel to me or even close to it. Power of suggestion? I'm not too proud to say I might be susceptible. And I've never had Crljenak Kastelanski. Still, it's as if the triplets were separated at birth and each went its own way.

Are you sure about all three being 'genetically identical', Gary?

I believe that CK is an immediate progenitor of Primitivo/Zinfandel, not that it is genetically identical.

And I've had CK. I've had several, as a matter of fact. I can detect similarities to Zin/Prim (or at least, think I can), but don't generally think of CK and Zin/Prim as all that similar. Just related.

Of course, a lot of that has to do with where the stuff comes from and how it is made. Pinot Noir in Burgundy may not taste like Pinot Noir from the Languedoc; as a matter of fact, it usually doesn't.

Brings up a good point anyway: even if Zinfandel (Murkan) and Primitivo (Eyetalian) came from the same parent grape in Dalmatia, what would lead us to believe that having immigrated and lived in two entirely different areas for at least a hundred years or more, they would still be the "same" grape?

Ooops, is that getting close to 'nature versus nurture'?

As an aside, I love the fact that US producers were selling bogus Burgundy, Chablis, Port, Sherry and Champagne for decades, but now that someone wants to use the US name for the EXACT SAME GRAPE, there's a problem.

Mondavi already has the CK label

is that the Fumé Zinfandel?

Are you sure about all three being 'genetically identical', Gary?

I believe that CK is an immediate progenitor of Primitivo/Zinfandel, not that it is genetically identical.

Hoke,
Zinfandel, Primitivo, and CK are identical according to DNA typing, according to Carole. Plavic Mali is a scion of CK. It is probably correct that Z, P, and CK are clones of the originl grape, but the DNA typing cannot distinguish clonal differences, like it can't distinguish PinotNoir and PinotBlanc..but they sure make different wines.
From the folks I've talked to...they (in Calif) use the Primitivo term (sometimes) to identify the Zin clone that was brought over from Italy. They seem to prefer it in the vnyd as the grapes don't ripen nearly as unevenly as Zin.
I believe the Italians ARE allowed to use Zinfandel on their label. When they started to label their Primitivo as Zinfandel (to ride on the coattails of Calif Zin), I believe the ZAP folks threw this hissy-fit (Kansas colloquialism for "childish temper tantrum") but the Feds allowed them to use Zinfandel on the Italian label.
Obviously, Primitivo (Italian) and Zinfandel (Calif) taste quite a bit different (to my palate) but it's probably has something to do with this terroir thing that I've been starting to hear things about on the InterNet.
Tom

Are you sure about all three being 'genetically identical', Gary?

Hoke, I'm not even sure what day it is, but I draw upon our much quoted Dr. Carole Meredith for my statement. I have posted this before back in September '05, but it can't hurt to post it again.

The Difference between a “Variety” and a “Clone”
Dr. Carole Meredith on WineLoversPage Forum

Zinfandel and Primitivo and Crljenak kastelanski are 3 names used for 1 variety. All three are the same variety, just like the synonyms Syrah/Shiraz or Tempranillo/Valdepenas. Although the variety has been in Croatia much longer than in Italy or the United States, Zinfandel is not “descended” from Crljenak in the genetic sense. Zin and Primitivo and Crljenak are all derived by vegetative multiplication (i.e., cuttings and buds) from a single original seedling.

Yes, there are clearly some differences between the vines called Zinfandel that we have been growing in California for 100+ years and those grown in Italy and called Primitivo. But those differences are clonal differences, not varietal differences. They are the same kinds of differences that can be observed between some clones of Syrah or between some clones of Chardonnay.

Here’s my boilerplate explanation of the distinction between clones and varieties:

DNA studies have clarified the distinction between a variety and clone. All vines of all clones of a variety are derived (by asexual propagation, i.e. cuttings and buds) from a single original vine. The single original vine arose as a seedling that was the result of a sexual union between two parent vines, almost always of two different varieties. All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises as a result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual) that occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood for new vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation survives to the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The mutations accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each other.

But clonal differences are very very tiny compared to the genetic differences between varieties. The standard DNA markers used to identify grape varieties will produce the same DNA profile for all clones in the variety. It took us years before we finally found any DNA markers at all that would separate any clones of Pinot or Chardonnay, and they only differentiated a few clones. The differences between varieties have their origin in sexual genetic processes (i.e., meiosis and recombination) whereas the differences between clones arise only from asexual processes.

This discussion becomes problematic in the case of Pinot noir, Pinot blanc, Pinot gris and Meunier, however, in that they are all, in fact, clones of a single variety (i.e., they all arose from a single original seedling and all have the same DNA profile) even though wine producers and consumers consider them to be separate varieties because they are so visibly different. The French language deals with this concept better in that all 4 are considered to be the same 'cepage'.
(end of boilerplate)

DNA profiling unambiguously distinguishes between individuals that have originated from separate sexual events.

In humans, this means that DNA profiling can distinguish individual people from each other if they have originated from separate sexual events, but it cannot differentiate identical (i.e., monozygotic) twins.

In grapevines, this means that DNA profiling can distinguish individual varieties from each other (like Chardonnay vs. Melon or Cabernet vs. Merlot) because they originated from separate sexual events, but it cannot differentiate clones within the same variety because they originated from a single sexual event.

Carole Meredith
University of California, Davis (sometimes)

Tom and Gary:

Thanks, guys.

I was apparently having a mind freeze. What Gary calls a 'senior moment'. I confuselated Plavac Mali (you'll have to add the little tail on the c if you're a purist) with the CK, hence my response.

Sorry. I'm much better now.

Damn Croatians should be required to use good basic Murkan English names, just like we require of the rest of the world.

Thanks for posting that again, Gary. It's a very informative read and bears rereading.
I love it when we get to talk "sex" here on WLDG!!
Tom

IIRC the Italians were banned from using Zinfandel as the grape variety - hence the PRIMITIVO aka zinfandel label.

(side swipe) Trade negotiations aren't about right or wrong, just who gets what out of each deal. Common sense would dictate 1 grape name, but common sense isn't the prime motivator.

Aye, but the rub is that, although all three grapes are genetically identical, i.e. identical triplets as it were, there seems to be differences in their expression as wine.

Generally about 2-3 degrees of alcohol

Seriously, I suspect 'Terroir' might have plenty to do with it in terms of differences, as well as winemaking styles / aims.

wrt the allowability of the name, I think you nailed it - the Italians can call it Zinfandel in Italy, but not on import to the US (hence this 'sailing close to the wind' label). I'm happy to be corrected if anyone's got the precise ruling

regards

Ian

The wine is targeted for sale in the US (only the US) and the TTB has approved the label.

Salute

So this is just a US marketing issue, right?

Thus, Jadot Bourgogne Rouge (Your Basic Red Burgundy) has been sold in US for decades, since before many US wineries had success making Pinot Noir and before all but a few current US Pinot Noir labels appeared. Yet the firm added "Pinot Noir" to the label, to help make it clear to consumers used to varietal names.

(That can go overboard. US consumers on the WS site reportedly [I don't read it] calling for all Europeans to switch to varietal labeling; it came up on alt.food.wine too, one relative wine newbie insisting he'd know more about any wine if he could see the grape varieties; experienced people mentioned regional examples where that might be more distracting than meaningful, but he didn't want to hear it.)

So this is just a US marketing issue, right?

Looks like it to me. It's only logical to use the name people associate with a variety in the target market; about five years ago I remember telling a CA producer to call his Pinot Gris 'Pinot Grigio,' and it made it much easier to sell. There's nothing remotely dishonest about it.

Gary, wouldn't it be nice if Carole were here full time all the time? I know I would sure appreciate having her nearby to settle these arguments.

'Fraid not. <g> They bought Charles Krug some years ago and for a while many of their wines had a label that could easily be read as "CK Mondavi".

I haven't seen it recently (that is in the last 10 years or so).

'Fraid not. <g> They bought Charles Krug some years ago and for a while many of their wines had a label that could easily be read as "CK Mondavi".

I haven't seen it recently (that is in the last 10 years or so).

The Mondavis have owned Charles Krug since WW II. It was only after Robert Mondavi became so famous that his estranged family decided to append the name "Mondavi" to the Charles Krug label for extra cachet.

Mark Lipton