Tasting note paranoia

Now that I'm trying to appreciate wine as a pastime in itself, whenever I pour a glass of wine I'll take some time to enjoy the aroma, taste and texture and then scribble down a few impressions of what the wine was like.

Before a second glass I can never, ever resist the temptation to look the wine up on the internet and read other peoples' tasting notes. Then, inevitably I'll go back for that second glass and discover several more flavours in the wine, mentioned in the tasting notes, that I hadn't picked out before. So I add those to my original notes and then compose an overall note to post here .

There's an upside and and downside to this process. On the upside it helps me enjoy the wine more because I suddenly find new dimensions and, I hope, it helps me learn so that maybe I'll be able to pick out the flavours in a different glass another time. On the downside it makes me completely paranoid that I just don't have the palate to properly appreciate good wine because I seem to miss so much.

Is it common for beginners to miss many aspects of a new wine on the first try?

Is reading other tasting notes a good way to learn?

Is there any way to practice, test and actually improve your sense of taste and smell?

It is common for even the most experienced of tasters to "miss" a flavor or aspect of a given wine. Reading others notes is fun and a great education, you can see how your tastes parallels theirs (called calibrating) and use that to discover new wines for yourself. Remember what you taste is what you taste and you can never be wrong. Go with it and have fun, as Dan Kravitz says "Wine is Fun, we're serious".

Do be careful though as the power of suggestion on the human mind is very strong. Back when I worked the tasting room of a small winery I decided to conduct a small and unscientific experiment. Using the same wine, I described it differently every time. First I did not stray too much from what the winemaker and I found in the wine but as the day went on I through in lots of things that we had never noticed, e.g. hints of anise. No way to tell if the people were just playing along or really tasting what I was preparing them to taste but every group that day, regardless of what I told them to expect, all gave me the head nod and yeah I get that response.

Same day, I also used a different wine and told everygroup that I was picking up a strong scent of spice but could not identify it. Again they all seemed to smell it but then getting them to identify it was all over the place. In this case, I was not lying but it was an interesting counter point to the other wine where I intentionally led them astray.

One other point. The winemaker once sent me home with two bottles to try and tell him what I thought. Both red. Since we only made grape wine and did do a number of reds, I never expected what I actually had and therefore tried to make my taste fit what I thought should be in the bottles. What I actually had was one bottle of cherry wine and one bottle of Chardonnay that was run through the filter immediately after the merlot so was picking up all the pigment left behind. At least on the cherry wine I did tell him that I thought it was a realitively poor Pinot due to the lack of body and the one-dimensional cherry flavor.

I think the big danger is getting caught up in the idea there's something there that is supposed to be universal. All of the aromas and flavors we describe are a (weak in my case) try at communicating what we smell/taste; but we all use inexact analogies. My black plum might be your black cherry, your lemon zest might be my grapefruit. The most important parts of a tasting note to me are:
1) how much did taster like it
2) how was the wine structurally- how are the acids, tannins, etc
3) and if the taster feels experienced enough to comment on particular type of wine, is it typical.

Is there any way to practice, test and actually improve your sense of taste and smell?

I think the answer to this question is to attend a meeting of a local wine group/instore tasting session and just go from there. Sure Joe may smell cherry whilst Bud has a raspberry aroma but hopefully a discussion will ensue and one goes from there. The leader of the session should be "a leader" and prompt participants along. This is not always the case however!!
I co-host quite a few tastings, you know what, the ladies are always the tasters who find something I missed!!

Matt, where in the UK are you?

Matt, where in the UK are you?

I live in Bath, down in the West Country.

I absolutely don't have time to attend regular testing sessions though, which is a great shame. Small children and all that

Reading others' notes can allow you to add descriptors to your own vocabulary, but on the whole I think that the chance of being influenced is too great to risk it. I'd have your bottle, make your notes, and when you are finished take a look at other people's notes.

I know one guy that read the review first, tasted the clearly corked wine, described the wine - you could tell it was corked from his description - and then dutifully gave it 94 points because God (er, excuse me, RP) had given it the same thing.

I also see (repeatedly) people that read notes from WS or WA and parrot them back when they taste the wine. Only problem is that the tasting notes they are parroting were done several years before and bear very little resemblance to the way the wine is showing today.

It is much harder to be independent and make up your own mind, but definitely worth the trouble. If you get the chance to blind taste with a group it can be instructive to see what others say about a wijne before they know what it is.

the ladies are always the tasters who find something I missed!!

Samo, samo around here!

Cheers, Carl

I like to try the wine, then look at the winemakers' notes to see if I found "it." There's always a silly little thrill if I agree with the "professional" wine maker.

As for critics' notes, I don't find the magazines always very helpful. Sometimes, frankly, I flat out disagree with the description. Which is why I let my Wine Enthusiast subscription expire.

[Jenise]

Reading others' notes can allow you to add descriptors to your own vocabulary, but on the whole I think that the chance of being influenced is too great to risk it. I'd have your bottle, make your notes, and when you are finished take a look at other people's notes.

Though I can't disagree with your emphasis on thinking independently, I have learned far more about wine by tasting wine with others than sipping alone. Tasting, then looking up others' tasting notes, then going back to the wine as Matt describes, is probably the next best thing to having someone else to taste with.

Though I can't disagree with your emphasis on thinking independently, I have learned far more about wine by tasting wine with others than sipping alone. Tasting, then looking up others' tasting notes, then going back to the wine as Matt describes, is probably the next best thing to having someone else to taste with.

The main problem with using other people's notes is that they are not from a tasting of the same bottle - in fact they are often several years old and may be almost totally inapplicable to the wine you are tasting.

Like I said, I have seen people quoting a Parker note that is 10 years old and twisting themselves into knots to find the things he found a decade ago, that frankly just ain't there any more.

I agree that seeing what someone else thought of the wine is a good thing, but unless they tasting note they wish to compare with is closely contemporaneous to their tasting, it is probably better to forgo it than to wind up fooling themselves r=that way.

In fact I have even done it (you know I have an evil streak)

I've poured two glasses of the same wine and read out two different tasting notes (neither of them for the wine in question), and then asked what people thought.

Braaackk!! Polly want a tasting note? They spewed back everything I had read out in both cases and thought that the wines were totally different wines - no one saw any resemblance between them, nor had a single original thought about either wine (I used to give wine courses at law school, and if you could find any independent thinkers, that would have been a good place to find them).

THAT is what reliance on others' notes will do and no, I don't think it is worth that price to try to learn about what you think you should be seeing in a wine.

Far better to taste, note, and then post on a group like this, as well as to look up others recent notes on the wine.

ATTENTION ALL OENO-NEOPHYTES! No one will give you a hard time about what you say about a wine - just post your honest observations. There is no right or wrong, experiences with different bottles will vary and people will probably come back with constructive comments, especially if you ask for them.

Some of the most penetrating insights into wines have come from the comments of complete amateurs with no preconceptions about the wine at all!

I've poured two glasses of the same wine and read out two different tasting notes (neither of them for the wine in question), and then asked what people thought.

Braaackk!! Polly want a tasting note? They spewed back everything I had read out in both cases and thought that the wines were totally different wines - no one saw any resemblance between them, nor had a single original thought about either wine (I used to give wine courses at law school, and if you could find any independent thinkers, that would have been a good place to find them).

This is exactly the same thing that I was stating above. If someone believes that the wine they are about to taste will include a hint of this or strongly of that than that is what they will taste. This is part of what we were taught at the tasting room. We always gave more introduction to the wines that we needed to move or did not sell themselves on their own merits.

This is part of what we were taught at the tasting room. We always gave more introduction to the wines that we needed to move or did not sell themselves on their own merits.

I hit that a couple of times last summer on a tasting trip, and finally told one woman to shut the heck up, please.

She wanted to know what the problem was and I told her it was hard to concentrate while she was busy insulting me by telling me what I would taste, assuming I was incapable of making my own assessment.

Does anyone else find that annoying? Certainly counter-productive in my case, but then I guess I am a curmudgeon.

Check out Vinography, Bill. Alder just had a lengthy rant on this very topic last week.

Check out Vinography, Bill. Alder just had a lengthy rant on this very topic last week.

Thanks Brian - interesting reading.

I actually had one Italian wine pimp...er sorry, agent, that was so overbearing in his insistence that the wines we were tasting were exactly the way he said and no other that I whipped out my credit card and dropped it on his table (this was at a small wine fair).

He asked me what I wanted and how much and I replied that as he seemed to know so much that he presumably knew what I wanted and how much I wanted to spend.. He wasn't amused.

It is hard to get across the idea that you really aren't interested in their opinions without hurting their feelings sometimes. And some of them are so insincere that they are just rattling it off by rote with no semblance of conviction.

I had one guy trying to sell me an Italian wine from the 1991 vintage, and he was swearing that it was just as good as the 1990 - a blatant lie. I thanked him for his advice and told him that if he really believed that I would never take any advice from him whatsoever in the future about wine and would certainly not be buying any at that time from someone who by his own statement couldn't tell the difference in quality between a 1990 and a 1991 (guess I am dating myself, but if you know the vintages in Italy you'll know what I mean).

I didn't know that the guy standing next to him was the visiting producer - I don't think the agent has ever forgiven me for embarrassing him, but the way I look at it, he embarrassed himself!

Yet other pourers are so good at it - offering information about the grapes and winemaking, but leaving it up to you to taste, unless you happen to ask them about how the wine tastes - "Do I detect a hint of green in this nose?" sort of thing. These are the pros, including the winemakers themselves. The others are flunkies or salesmen.

Hmm. Quite a divergence of opinion here and obviously some strongly held beliefs.

On balance people seem to favour not reading tasting notes.

I'm tempted to carry on, for two reasons.

Firstly as I said above I find it does increase my enjoyment of the wine.

Second I think I'm pretty good at resisting suggestion. Last wine I tried, the TN's suggested there were gamey and mineral elements to it that I couldn't pick up at all. There were also suggested flavours of licorice and chocolate which I did miss on the first pass but seemed to find on the second and enjoyed all the more as a result. I'm also positive I could taste and smell hazelnuts in the wine which no-one else had mentioned. So I'm fairly comfortable asserting my own opinion.

Yes I miss stuff. I also don't get some tastes others get, partly because I have less experience with that flavour than them.

Suggestion is powerful, but sometimes it solves the subconscious nagging that you couldn't place your finger on a taste.

I'll throw one other comment in. The Jilly Goolden school of tasting always seemed to reel off a string of fruits and the like. One subtle skill in tasting is to also refer to elements of the wines structure (e.g. acidity - is it harsh, bracing, refreshing or insufficient?). Broadbents wine tasting book & Schusters Essential Winetasting both cover this well (no doubt there are other good books around). For someone who picks up strongly on structural elements, have a look at some of Otto's notes.

Having said that, there are no rules to tasting notes. I'll write them for me, and over time became more at ease in sharing them with others (I was worried for a while that people would judge the quality of the TN - but this just doesn't happen).

and paranoia? yes I've suffered the same before and I recall Otto raising similar fears a while back. It happens, but best to let the concerns fade away.

regards

Ian

Right on, Matt! You're more than halfway there already!

Does anyone else find that annoying?

I actually find it quite annoying but then again I understand it is a business. Having wines that don't sell are not good for the strength of the business. We all understand how more important this can be to a small or newer winery, especially if this is their livelihood and not a second career after Wall Street.

When I was on that side of the tasting bar, I had to make some decisions based upon how I perceived the people on the other side. You need to tailor your sales pitch (yes you are a salesman) to the crowd. If they are geeks, you pile on the details, brix & pH, how long in oak, what kind, source of fruit, etc. If they are not wine folks but just out for a good time, you give them more the soft side. Stories about the history of the winery, medals from competions, how this wine was served in the White House, and yes this includes what they may taste in the wine before they try it. Believe it or not there are a large portion of the population who wants you to tell them what to expect. There were numerous times that if I did not do that for a particular wine I was asked before some people would try it.

I need to note that except for the day I reference above I tried to honestly describe the wines. If asked directly (which was often) if I had a favorite between two wines or which would age better, I gave my opinion even if the answer resulting in selling the wine that was not what the winery needed to move. In my mind there is a difference between setting a customers expectations and not honestly answering questions.

Another, minor thing which I felt I ought to note is that reading other tasting notes has helped me determine, with white wines at least, whether I've got the serving temperature right! On one occasion I must've unwillingly overchilled a bottle to the point where it tasted of nothing so much as pear vodka. Tasting notes suggested peach flavours and a creamy texture which did reveal themselves after it had warmed up a bit - although I still wasn't terribly impressed by the bottle!

Is there any way to practice, test and actually improve your sense of taste and smell?

Yes. You must drink not only with your mouth but your mind also. And from your previous posts you are doing exactly this. Like all interesting things, one will never "understand" wine - it will always be a journey.

As indicated above in this thread, I have huge doubts as to the genre of the TN - but I realised that I simply like the interaction that it can at times bring, so I continue to post them. I hope that whatever paranoia you feel, that you will also post on the wines you drink and taste.

One realisation that helped me continue writing here is that TNs are impressionistic. Though the scents we perceive will have a basis in reality (see this artice by Tom Stevenson), we don't really think in such terms when we taste wine, but rather in impressionistic terms. So I think that if one reads notes with an open mind and is willing to use one's imagination and intellect, TNs will almost always be useful. And what I like about this forum (and UKwf and one or two other places on the internet) is that participants here are willing use their imaginations and intellect.

Cheers,
-Otto-

Matt, here are my thoughts as a beginner: Just taste it, say/write what you see/smell/taste/feel, and that's that; something tells me that (picking up complex aromas/flavors, discerning two very similar wines) come around slowly and you'll likely never notice your own progression due to how slow it may unfold.

Again, I'm a beginner like you, but from reading several discussions on here, asking a question or two, and just thinking about it I've realized that there's no way to force yourself into masterfully appreciating wine--it probably just happens

Enjoy!

Is there any way to practice, test and actually improve your sense of taste and smell?

One of the best things I've done for myself is force my nose and palate to start paying attention to as many things that stimulate them on a daily basis as possible. When I get a strong whiff of something, rather than thinking to myself, "that smells good," I try to figure out what the smell actually is. Sometimes this proves to be more difficult than it sounds. Yet, as frustrating as it can be to place a certain smell, I think that the "library" that I build up in my mind proves useful in the future. I think it somewhat fine-tunes my senses as well.

I also try to pay special attention to instances in which I'm smelling something that is a typical "wine aroma." If I cut a peach in half, I get my nose right up in there and try to ingrain the scent in my memory.

Another sort of strange thing I do is have one wine rack filled with all unique single varietal wines (I'll eventually work my way up to blends). My partner picks the wine and blind tastes me. I typically write complete tasting notes before I find out what the wine is. It's interesting to approach a wine with no preconceived notion of the aromas and flavors one should be looking for.

He has actually just put a glass of a very dark red infront of me. The nose is a bit obstructed by vanilla/oak. There's a bit of dark berry fruit, cocoa, and dusty cigar poking through. The palate is full, with some herbal elements, and the tannins a bit chalky. I'm thinking Cabernet Sauvignon.

Alas, it's the 2001 Clos Pegase Merlot Mitsuko's Vineyard, Napa Valley. Not terribly far off, and in my defense, this may have some Cab blended into it. A bit disappointing though. Hopefully the fruit will open up with a bit of time and shine through the oak.

I digress. Matt, my best advice, as a fellow newbie, is to do what makes you appreciate wine the most. If finding your own notes incompatible with others' is somewhat stressful and deters from your enjoyment of the glass before you, then it's probably best to just focus on your own notes. If you find that others' notes enhance your experience and you learn from them, then why not? Typically, I write my own, then refer to others' notes. If they point out something of interest that I missed, I add a little post script at the end of my own notes. That way, when I refer back to them, I know what I had found on my own and what I needed a little nudging to discover.

Certainly counter-productive in my case, but then I guess I am a curmudgeon.

Welcome to the club Bill!