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Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

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Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by OW Holmes » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:13 pm

As Robin's posting on the MoCOOL home page indicates, many contributed a bottle or three of 1998 Chateauneuf-du-Pape to a horozontal tasting immediately preceeding the unorganized mayhem that is the picnic, and it was a real eye opener to most of us who participated.
Parker once called this vintage the "gold standard" for the Southern Rhone, and still lists it as 98E on his vintage chart - the 98 being the highest rating of a vintage he had given until this year, and the E meaning early drinking and accessible. We just wanted to see if, across the board, these babies were ready to drink yet. Most, I think, guessed they would be a bit young, perhaps at the early stage of a long drinking window.
And at the end, I think all of us agreed with Robin's characterization. Of the dozen or so we tried, more were past peak than short of it. The Vieux Telegraphe, for example, had been a little tight but very nice with 4 hours of air the night before, and for some was better than the Pegau Reservee opened at the same time. But by the following afternoon, it seemed old. The Pegau Lawrence, Pegau Reservee, and Beaucastel were my top three of the group, but I also like the very traditional Bois de Boursan, the wierdly shaped bottle of de la Gardine (which was the youngest probably because Mike Brenton keeps his cellar at about 48 degrees), the tobaccco flavored LaNerthe, and the well balanced Pallieres Gigondas. Actually, I didn't dislike any, and in fact am perhaps a bit more appreciative of wines a bit over the hill than others who are more critical, or have better taste, might be.
But the point is, if you have '98 Southern Rhones that have been stored under pretty normal conditions, I suspect the group of 12 or 14 who participated in this would say - give em an hour of air and drink em up. There are no odds in waiting.

Thanks to all who contributed to this very worthwhile event.
-OW
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by David M. Bueker » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:42 pm

For properly stored bottles I have a real hard time believing that the '98s are anywhere near peak. I've had 3 or 4 over the last year (including Pegau, Bosquet des Papes, Clos des Papes), and they were nowhere near ready to show their best.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by OW Holmes » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:52 pm

I certainly thought so too, before the tasting. I can say that the Pegau Reservee was NOT over the hill at all, and we didn't have the other two in the tasting, but I know the storage conditions of the VT I brought - it and the Pegau have been at a constant 60 degrees since I purchased it. Now that may accelerate it a bit faster than if stored at 57 degrees (that was actually my plan since I am mid 60s already) and maybe the VT is just a bad wine, but it went down hill from the 4th hour to the 20th, and rather remarkeably.
By the way, I agree about the '98 Clos des Papes. The bottle I opened a couple of years ago was magnificent, but still showing a ton of upside potential, but it was a lighter wine to begin with than either the Pegau or the VT, and perhaps built a little bit better for aging.
In any event, I am sharing my rather disappointed view of this vintage - I'd like it to be otherwise since I have a bunch of '98 CdP to drink up.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by David M. Bueker » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:57 pm

'98 Vieux Telegraphe has pretty much universally been recognized as nowhere near prime time on other sites, so I'm at a bit of a loss to explain your bottle. 60 degrees should not matter much for a wine like VT after only 10 years or so.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Robin Garr » Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:00 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:'98 Vieux Telegraphe has pretty much universally been recognized as nowhere near prime time on other sites, so I'm at a bit of a loss to explain your bottle. 60 degrees should not matter much for a wine like VT after only 10 years or so.


Nevertheless, having posted generally similar notes, I've got to concur in OW's summation, at least as far as this random sample of 98s is concerned. With only a couple of exceptions (most notably the remarkably youthful Gardine), the wines showed various hues of bronze to brick to brown, and virtually all of them had at least a touch of maderization (a characteristic that I seem to be unusually sensitive to and offended by).

I'd have to agree that provenance might be an issue, but it's worth noting that at least one 98 Gigondas and a Provence Syrah in the same tasting lineup were both still youthful and well short of peak.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by OW Holmes » Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:56 pm

And, Robin, the Pallieres Gigondas had exactly the same provenance as the VT and the Pegau. They were purchased a month apart, and stored side by side.
Very strange.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by James Roscoe » Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:19 pm

OW Holmes wrote:And, Robin, the Pallieres Gigondas had exactly the same provenance as the VT and the Pegau. They were purchased a month apart, and stored side by side.
Very strange.


Of course there is no accounting for how they were shipped and stored prior to getting in your capable hands. There is also bottle variation and other weird stuff to take into account. It sounds unusual. I wouldn't expect '98 CdPs to be on the down side.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:47 pm

I passed previous comments onto a friend in the UK. He is highly regarded in CdP circles and reckons some of the wines feature typical heat transportation problems.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by C. Kissack » Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:48 pm

I can't comment on these wines, obviously, not having tasted them, but I would caution about extrapolating the results of this tasting to all 1998 CdPs. I have a bunch in the cellar, and I think drinking them now would be opening the wines too young rather than too old.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by David M. Bueker » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:01 pm

No time to do it right now, but in the interest of science I will volunteer a bottle of 1998 VT early this fall. Please help me to remember. I will be sure ot open it up with other highly experienced tasters to get a cross-section of opinions.

And I was also thinking heat damage, but had no way of knowing if something had been lovingly hand carried from the estate.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Bob Henrick » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:36 pm

David, I had two wines in this tasting, and they have been stored at 55 degrees. They were certainly on the slippery slope. I won't be holding onto any 98's for more than a couple years. I am not sure though just what you call properly stored though.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by OW Holmes » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:05 pm

That is a possibility, that the VT was damaged before I got it. It was the first purchased of the 5 southern rhones I brought to semicool, but it was purchased from a different source than the rest. It has NEVER tasted good to me, except for the first bottle I had in the first month after purchase. After that it was angular, thin, disgusting. It was beginning to come around a year ago, but bad handling before I got the case could account for it.
On the other hand, there were lots of others that were near the end too, and from cellars that have handled wine extremely well in the past. Joel's, BobH's, etc. So we all hope that there is plenty of life left in the ninety eights, but our experience says don't count on it!!!
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by David M. Bueker » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:10 pm

Like i said, this tasting runs counter to what I have read and tasted from everywhere else (except for some reports on bad bottles of the Brunel Les Cailloux - drank mine up & they were still gloriously fruity). I sense some poor handling of the wines prior to people buying them. The '98 vintage was just on the early edge of wine geek shipping well founded paranoia & retailer/distributor reaction to the paranoia.

Look for my note in October.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Dale Williams » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:26 pm

I only own the Bois de Boursan and La Gardine, but have had several other '98 CdP, would be very surprised if cracking up. Both VT and Clos des Papes were very young to me.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Gregg G » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:20 pm

Earlier in the year we sampled in on the '98 CdPs, too. To sum things up, I feel several domaines are marked with roasted fruit (prune like flavors), while other domaines did very well. Prune notes were found in Les Cailloux (a domaine I love), Pontifical, Marcoux reg. cuvee, P. Usegglio reg. cuvee, Jaboulet Les Cedres and others I cannot remember. Wines I have had that did not show roasted notes were the Pegau Res., Vieux Donjon, Raymond Usseglio, Vieux Telegraphe, Clos des Papes, Bosque des Papes "Chantlemerle", Vieille Julienne (nondesignate), Janasse Chaupin and Beaucastel. I still have a Vieille Julienne VV to try. It took some bottle age for the prune notes to show as many earlier samples (within 4 yrs of release) showed quite well. The vintage was very hot and serious vineyard management was essential. In regards to the Vieux Telegraphe, I can say with confidence, this wine is nowhere near peak. VT wines are long lived as recent '85, '88, '89s have been excellent. A recent '95 was still vibrant and young. All of the VTs I've purchased over the years are Kermit Lynch imports. I would be learly of grey market bottlings.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by James Roscoe » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:20 pm

Educate me please. what do you mean by "gray market" bottlings? I have seen this term come up before, but I really don't understand its meaning. Sorry for the inevitable thread drift.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by OW Holmes » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:22 pm

Gregg G wrote: In regards to the Vieux Telegraphe, I can say with confidence, this wine is nowhere near peak. VT wines are long lived as recent '85, '88, '89s have been excellent. A recent '95 was still vibrant and young. All of the VTs I've purchased over the years are Kermit Lynch imports. I would be learly of grey market bottlings.


Gregg, you obviously have much more experience than I do, and I bow to that experience. My experience with earlier VTs mirrors yours. Even at this event, we had another CdP horozontal of 1994s, and to me they all tasted younger than the 98s on average. That is why this experience was so unusual. But I still think I will jump on the 98s I have in the cellar - maybe not all of them, but a couple - to see if we just got unlucky at semicool, or just snatched bad bottles, or are crazy. I hope we are crazy. I really do.
ow
ps: My '98 VTs are kermit lynch too, but they may have been left on a dock somewhere, or in a van with no air conditioning, or just sat outside my retailer's place for a day in the sun.
Why not pop one of your '98 VTs, drink it over 48 hours, and let us hear about it?
-OW
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Mark Lipton » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:24 pm

James Roscoe wrote:Educate me please. what do you mean by "gray market" bottlings? I have seen this term come up before, but I really don't understand its meaning. Sorry for the inevitable thread drift.


James,
Grey market wines are wines brought into this country through channels other than the official importer. Certain retailers (e.g. Premier Cru) are known for carrying a lot of grey market wines. Some might arrive here though secondary market (auctions, cellar purchases) transactions, others through deals with Canadian importers, etc. The issue of provenance is often a big one with grey market imports, as is the question of counterfeiting with the more prestigious ones. Jancis Robinson, I believe, has stated that most of the high-profile cases of counterfeit Petrus and DRC can be traced to grey market sources.

HTH
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Dale Williams » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:48 am

Mark Lipton wrote: Grey market wines are wines brought into this country through channels other than the official importer. Certain retailers (e.g. Premier Cru) are known for carrying a lot of grey market wines. Some might arrive here though secondary market (auctions, cellar purchases) transactions, others through deals with Canadian importers, etc. The issue of provenance is often a big one with grey market imports, as is the question of counterfeiting with the more prestigious ones. Jancis Robinson, I believe, has stated that most of the high-profile cases of counterfeit Petrus and DRC can be traced to grey market sources.


I thought most counterfeit bottles entered market through auction? I've never heard of a batch of counterfeits being traced to any major gray marketeer- would soon put them out of business. Maybe a stray bottle or two, but that's probably true of anyone dealing in secondary market.

Most of the big grey (I like to switch spellings) marketeers get most of their wine by taking advantage of price differentials in various markets- in other words, arbitrage. Chateau Lipton is popular in US, sells 10,000 cases to importer for $25/bottle. Marked up distributor to retailer to customer, $50 bottle. Chateau Lipton wants to break into Polish market, sells Krakow distributor 2,000 cases at $16/bottle. Big Edie, an agent of GreyGardens Imports (grey marketeer), offers distributor (or a retailer) a quick buy of half his cases. Ends up in US at $40/bottle. Figures are probably off- we need JBL- but that's basic idea.

I'd also caution against the assumption that shipping/travel conditions are worse at grey marketeers. Certainly some are careless. But I'd say my record for (lack of) heat damage is as good with wines from PC'd import arm, Adventures in Wine, Bordeaux Locators, etc as many authorized importers. There are several big importers with shall we say rather lackluster reps for storage.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Mark Lipton » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:27 am

Dale Williams wrote:I thought most counterfeit bottles entered market through auction? I've never heard of a batch of counterfeits being traced to any major gray marketeer- would soon put them out of business. Maybe a stray bottle or two, but that's probably true of anyone dealing in secondary market.


If one considers any imported wine not brought into this country via the official importer to be a grey market wine, then auctions count as grey market, too. In my comment, I wasn't implying that a place like PC deals in counterfeit wines, but rather that the counterfeits didn't bear the imprimatur of the official importer.

Most of the big grey (I like to switch spellings) marketeers get most of their wine by taking advantage of price differentials in various markets- in other words, arbitrage. Chateau Lipton is popular in US, sells 10,000 cases to importer for $25/bottle. Marked up distributor to retailer to customer, $50 bottle. Chateau Lipton wants to break into Polish market, sells Krakow distributor 2,000 cases at $16/bottle. Big Edie, an agent of GreyGardens Imports (grey marketeer), offers distributor (or a retailer) a quick buy of half his cases. Ends up in US at $40/bottle. Figures are probably off- we need JBL- but that's basic idea.


Yup, that's how I understand it, too. (I hope that I wasn't implying otherwise in my post) BTW, where can I get some of that Ch. Lipton? I've heard great things about it, but winesearcher doesn't turn anything up! :cry:

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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Dale Williams » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:43 am

Mark Lipton wrote:If one considers any imported wine not brought into this country via the official importer to be a grey market wine, then auctions count as grey market, too. In my comment, I wasn't implying that a place like PC deals in counterfeit wines, but rather that the counterfeits didn't bear the imprimatur of the official importer.


That's just a broader definition of grey market than I usually use. I think of authorized channels, grey market, and secondary market. To me grey market implies importing a current (or recent) release, generally in some form of quantity.
Curious if others use grey market that broadly?


I'd note that a fair percentage of counterfeits of older wines are bottled in empties (retrieved from restaurant trash or whatever) and would bear the strip from the original importer.
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Dale Williams » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:44 am

PS will serve you a bottle of Ch. Lipton next time you're in NYC,but can't swear to it not being counterfeit, hot wine you know
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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Dave Moritz » Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:30 pm

Regarding the orginal topic of this rather "drfity" thread, I'd have to say that the the '98 Clos du Mont Olivet that I posted on elsewhere in this board is not evolving prematurely. If I had more, I'd have no concern about leaving it my passive cellar for a few more years.

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Re: Semi-Cool tasting of 1998 CdPs

by Mike Brenton » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:54 pm

I agree with OW, Robin, and Bob re the '98 CdP observations. I was very surprised about the browning and deterioration evident in several, particularly since I know they were well cared for. I agree that the Ch. de la Gardine I brought was perhaps the most youthful, although my cellar only gets to the 48 degree Fahrenheit range in the colder portion of the winter. Otherwise it is close to 58F.

Regarding some of the other observations re potential provenance issues before they get into our hands, I have a wide array of CdPs, all purchased upon release and all purchased soon after being brought into the country by the authorized importer. To date, I have never opened one, even older than '98, which I felt was deteriorating.

I do recall several years ago when two friends each came to a party, each with a bottle of Beaucastel from the same vintage, purchased from different sources (can't recall the vintage--may have been '89). The wines were so different thay may as well have been made of entirely different grapes from vintages years apart. One was fading. The other marvelous. I thought that was probably illustrative of the effect storage can have at some point in the wine's life.
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