Names and Things

Whenever visting a southeast Michigan city home to a world class university, I stop in at a certain corner wine store (very big hint). For a small place the selection is huge and wonderful, especially for those with an eye for QPR. I’m partial to whites so I look especially for them.

A recent visit resulted in a haul of 16 bottles. One of the "whites" was an ‘01 Vincent Saincrit Saumur Champigny. Eyebrows surely will rise among the cognoscenti here. “Isn’t that a red?” Yes it is, but I didn’t know that at the time and bought the bottle because the label says “WHITE LOIRE WINE”.

When I contacted the store owner he replied that Saumur Champigny is an exclusively red-wine appellation. I’m sure it is, but how is a customer supposed to know, especially when the label explicitly says otherwise? I was surprised that the owner dealt with the matter so offhandedly and that I wasn't offered a credit.

Whenever visting a southeast Michigan city home to a world class university, I stop in at a certain corner wine store (very big hint). For a small place the selection is huge and wonderful, especially for those with an eye for QPR. I’m partial to whites so I look especially for them.

A recent visit resulted in a haul of 16 bottles. One of the "whites" was an ‘01 Vincent Saincrit Saumur Champigny. Eyebrows surely will rise among the cognoscenti here. “Isn’t that a red?” Yes it is, but I didn’t know that at the time and bought the bottle because the label says “WHITE LOIRE WINE”.

When I contacted the store owner he replied that Saumur Champigny is an exclusively red-wine appellation. I’m sure it is, but how is a customer supposed to know, especially when the label explicitly says otherwise? I was surprised that the owner dealt with the matter so offhandedly and that I wasn't offered a credit.

Dan, pardon me for asking what might be an insulting question, but wasn't the color of the wine obvious from looking at the bottle itself? Why rely on the language on the label when the liquid itself is staring you in the face?

Mark Lipton

No, you couldn't tell the color from the bottle.

[David M. Bueker]

In that southeast Michigan city home to a world class university it is impossible to tell wine color because all of the bottles are maize and blue.

So it is not shocking that more cooperative wine stores (and world class universities) come from places where red and white are more important.

maybe he thought this was a game of blind man's bluff?

creightond:

maybe he thought this was a game of blind man's bluff?

I like that!

David:

So it is not shocking that more cooperative wine stores (and world class universities) come from places where red and white are more important

And where might that be? Columbus, Ohio would have to be excluded.

It is sometimes hard to tell color from bottle. I once bought 2 bottles of '92 Chassagne-Montrachet, neck label said "white Burgundy wine." So I pour first glass to accompany a fish course- out comes red. Zachys gave me credit for both bottles when I returned second.

I had the same experience with another Burgundy, Dale. I enjoyed it so much I didn't ask for a refund.

Thanks for posting that experience -- it brought back a very pleasant memory. Janet was greatly amused at how I fancied myself a wine lover, and couldn't even tell the color of a wine. Made for a very fun evening.

Reminds me of the day I was in a store and checking the depth of colour of a Maury against some light. Clerk came over......

"Its a red wine sir".
"I know that, just checking the colour in the neck".

After another wierd comment from the clerk, sent him off to find me a white Valpolicella!!!!!!!!

When I contacted the store owner he replied that Saumur Champigny is an exclusively red-wine appellation. I’m sure it is, but how is a customer supposed to know, especially when the label explicitly says otherwise? I was surprised that the owner dealt with the matter so offhandedly and that I wasn't offered a credit.

Regarding this, the actual question (now that we've dispensed with my naive query), I agree that it's not very customer-friendly to say (in essence) "you should have known better." Caveat emptor, I suppose, but not a good recipe for getting repeat business.

Mark Lipton

Boy, I'm with you on that Mark. Pretty poor customer relations in my book.

Regards, Bob

Mark:

Regarding this, the actual question (now that we've dispensed with my naive query), I agree that it's not very customer-friendly to say (in essence) "you should have known better."

The store owner's point seems to be that it's up to the customer to know enough about the appellation to go by it rather than by what the label says about the wine being a red or white.

The store owner's point seems to be that it's up to the customer to know enough about the appellation to go by it rather than by what the label says about the wine being a red or white.

Wow. I'd have trouble accepting that attitude (knowing average wine consumer) re Barolo, St. Julien, Corton-Charlemagne, Chambertin, or Brunello di Montacino. But Saumur-Champigny? Maybe one geek in 10 could tell you its all red, and the average wine drinking population 1 in 1000. Especially since Saumur (sans Champigny) produces white, rose, and sparkling, as well as red.

What is the law in Michigan concerning sale of mislabeled goods? I don't see where this is any different from buying plum jam, only to taste it and find out it was blackberry.

-Paul W.

[Robin Garr]

Whenever visting a southeast Michigan city home to a world class university, I stop in at a certain corner wine store (very big hint) ... When I contacted the store owner he replied that Saumur Champigny is an exclusively red-wine appellation. I’m sure it is, but how is a customer supposed to know, especially when the label explicitly says otherwise? I was surprised that the owner dealt with the matter so offhandedly and that I wasn't offered a credit.

Let's cut to the chase here: Are you talking about Village Corner in Ann Arbor and store owner Dick Scheer?

While I don't know Dick well personally, I know him both casually and by reputation, and this behavior sounds <i>extremely</i> out of character. Assuming this is who you're talking about, I'd strongly suggest trying to re-establish communication, clearly explaining what you want and why you want it. I just plain don't see Dick blowing off any customer that way.

[Jenise]

Dan, pardon me for asking what might be an insulting question, but wasn't the color of the wine obvious from looking at the bottle itself? Why rely on the language on the label when the liquid itself is staring you in the face?

Mark Lipton

In defense of Dan, dark green can be pretty dark if you don't hold a bottle up to light, and it's easy to rely on the label alone. I once poured a Reverdy Sancerre I believed to be white to go with a fish starter course, and couldn't have been more shocked when a pinot noir plopped into my first guest's glass.

The problem was not created by the store owner in that city in southeast Michigan with the great university. He simply put the product on the shelf. No one expects a retailer to examine each label carefully. Also, something I didn't mention, is he readily offered a credit on a different bottle that was oxidized. So he's not a bad guy and I never thought he was. For whatever reason though, his response to the Saumur Champigny situation was essentially word for word what I said. Presumably, the product is still on the shelf. I thought folks would find that of interest.

do i understand that you DID NOT ASK FOR YOUR MONEY BACK?

In the interest of bringing this saga to a merciful close, the slightly edited correspondence follows.

Me:

Yesterday I sent a message about a Saumur bought at your shop that was oxidized. Today brings another Saumur story. I opened a bottle of '01 Vincent Saincrit Saumur Champigny bought at the same time. The label clearly says " White Loire Wine", which is why I bought it. Guess what? It's a red.

Them:

We'll be glad to replace your oxidized bottle of 01 Saumur blanc l'Insolite, Germain purchased at $11.99. Please present this email the next time you're by, so the wine staff knows what's going on.

Saumur Champigny is an exclusively red-wine appellation. I'm curious about how the 'white wine' verbiage got on the label. It might be entertaining to enter a dialogue with Saincrit about this. If you cannot google him directly, he works with Thierry Germain, who has an international reputation and is surely accessible.

So right, I never asked for my money back (or suggested that I did). Nor was I offered anything in the way of compensation. My reason for writing about it was the thought that it might have some general interest. Also, anyone thinking of buying an '01 Vincent Saincrit Saumur Champigny might want to know that it's really not a white!

Let's cut to the chase here: Are you talking about Village Corner in Ann Arbor and store owner Dick Scheer?

While I don't know Dick well personally, I know him both casually and by reputation, and this behavior sounds <i>extremely</i> out of character. Assuming this is who you're talking about, I'd strongly suggest trying to re-establish communication, clearly explaining what you want and why you want it. I just plain don't see Dick blowing off any customer that way.

Robin, what you say above is exactly my take on the matter. I might though not be TOO surprised with that kind of attitude with at least one of the sales staff. I am sure Dan knows which is the owner and which is sales staff though. The reason I say what I did is that this year I called the VC and ordered a case of CGT Edelzwicker, and noticed that my card had been debited almost immediately. IMO, the authorization should have been placed on the card, but the debit not made until I picked the wine up.

Dan,
Having now seen the correspondence, I think that I can see where the problem lies. In your email to the retailer, you really didn't make it clear that you were displeased with the fact that the wine was red, so it appears that the retailer assumed that you were more amused/bemused by the situation and offered you his advice for getting an "answer." Had you mentioned to him that you wouldn't have bought the wine if you'd realized that it were red, I'll bet that he would have offered a refund. The problem with email is that, unlike a phone call, he has no way of inferring the inflection you're putting on your words. I have no problem when reading it (and knowing the full story) in "hearing" the frustration and disappointment in your email, but I fully understand the retailer's reaction, too. It's easy for me to say that, had I been on the receiving end of that email, I would have enquired whether that situation presented a problem for you, but I have no idea what was happening in the shop that day and how much time he had to deal with your email. It may be too late, but you could probably still explain this to him and see if you can get a refund or something.

Mark Lipton

Sorry to resurrect what I hoped was over, but the following was received today from the store owner after another exchange of emails between us. He really is a good guy.

Thanks for your responses. All your positions are considerate and sensible. I'll carry the ball to Saincrit and Germain and see what we come up with. Meanwhile, you're covered on both bottles and any additional problems that might crop up.

Perhaps the chat here educated us all a bit.

No that sounds more like Dick.
Glad things worked out for you, Dan.