Netscape Forum Poll: I'm okay with cork ...

[Robin Garr]

It's time for another of our periodic reality checks on wine-consumer acceptance of alternatives to natural cork for wine-bottle closures. This time we're shooting for a snapshot of the level of acceptance by asking the degree to which you're okay with cork, ranging from "never" to "always." The more votes, the more meaningful the results, so please take a moment to share your opinion in our CompuServe/Netscape forum poll.

<b>Click here to vote!</b>

(Standard reminder: You don't have to register or log in to Netscape to vote, and after voting, if you want to comment, you're welcome to come back here to this thread to do so.)

Strange poll. It's hard to say that one is never ok with cork, as the vast majority of wines are still sealed with cork. I voted sometimes, but not sure what I meant by that. What I would say is if asked that I'd PREFER stelvin to cork.

[Robin Garr]

Strange poll.

It's hard to say that one is never ok with cork, as the vast majority of wines are still sealed with cork. I voted sometimes, but not sure what I meant by that. What I would say is if asked that I'd PREFER stelvin to cork.

Remember that these polls, with their non-random, self-selecting audience, are not and cannot be statistically rigorous. The reason I sometimes word them provocatively is simple: If they make us think about some aspect of wine and talk about some aspect of wine, then my work here is done ...

yeah, but this one seems designed by the Cork Council. Hard to believe any wine drinker would say they never find cork acceptable, so it's not really much of a "check on wine-consumer acceptance of alternatives to natural cork for wine-bottle closures." It's like asking Americans "are you OK in riding in a vehicle with a gasoline engine?", even the most fervent bike rider, diesel advocate, mass transit fan is unlikely to say never.

[Robin Garr]

yeah, but this one seems designed by the Cork Council. Hard to believe any wine drinker would say they never find cork acceptable, so it's not really much of a "check on wine-consumer acceptance of alternatives to natural cork for wine-bottle closures." It's like asking Americans "are you OK in riding in a vehicle with a gasoline engine?", even the most fervent bike rider, diesel advocate, mass transit fan is unlikely to say never.

Maybe you're right, Dale ... I'll take either the credit or the blame for the poll's framework. It seems to me, though, looking at the results so far, that we're seeing some spread across the range of choices ... and it was with that assumption that I offered a range rather than just "Cork, good or evil (Y/N)?"

Now that I mention it, that would make for an interesting poll, too ...

Well, I voted never, despite three-quarters of my cellar being thusly sealed. My reasoning was that I'm not OK with cork until it's out of the bottle and the wine's OK, which is NEVER a safe bet. Packaging which runs a significant risk of destroying the product it's supposed to be protecting is a ludicrous anachronism in this day and age. I'm all for tradition - passing the port to the left, standing for the Halleluiah chorus, for instance - yet I'm not happy sending six-year-olds down the coal mines, or owning slaves, which is where the tradition of cork belongs; a scourge which ought to be banished from the face of the earth.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh...

cheers,
Graeme

[David M. Bueker]

I love cork. It makes very nice boards for posting notes in the kitchen. Also good trivets.

The trouble with cork is that I am never sure whether I'm OK with it or not until I have opened the bottle. I voted NEVER.

I must say I am surprised to see at this point – especially on a wine enthusiast forum – acceptance of cork running approximately three to one. I actually thought I would be among a very tiny percentage to declare that I always prefer cork, even if the bottle is corked. Now I’ll bet I stand alone on that one.

I must say I am surprised to see at this point – especially on a wine enthusiast forum – acceptance of cork running approximately three to one. I actually thought I would be among a very tiny percentage to declare that I always prefer cork, even if the bottle is corked. Now I’ll bet I stand alone on that one.

Well, Covert, much like Thoreau was, you're not as much the isolated independent as you'd like to believe you are.

There are still plenty of people out there who primarily think of cork as their standard bottle finish. Not surprising as that is what has been the bottle finish for their entire lives. It's what they are used to; it's what they expect.

Change is never easy. And it's rarely quick, and almost never total. It's a process, and we're in the middle of that process.

Winemakers and wine companies are evolving away from cork closure. Not all of them, and those that are don't move at the same speed or with the same fervor. And the acceptance moves at its own speed. But it's happening, and I think it is a natural and reasonable evolutionary process.

The problem, as always and ever, is educating a sufficiency of the mass to understand, get over the impracticalites (what some call 'romance', confusing the thing or the rote behavior with the wine), and accept. It takes time to do that. But it is happening.

To roughly quote/paraphrase Shakespeare, 'If it be not now, yet it will come. The readiness is all."

You're successfully and staunchly playing your desired role as Chief Recidivist and Pre-Christian Antiquarian in the game. Job well done. And when the time comes, you can be the Chief Mourner of What Was.

There are still plenty of people out there who primarily think of cork as their standard bottle finish. Not surprising as that is what has been the bottle finish for their entire lives. It's what they are used to; it's what they expect.

Burning the fall leaves in front of the house; telephone booths with walls; the 13 week, no rerun TV season; meeting people at the gate in the airport; human beings at the other end of the line when you call customer service; being able to see the ground when you look down on the engine of your car and knowing what all the parts are for; time to think instead of e-mail; good penmanship instead of fancy fonts; seasonal fruit; counting on marriages to last instead of counting your last marriage ... and soon corks in wine bottles, but I don't think it'll be such a great loss in light of so many other things.

Change is never easy. And it's rarely quick, and almost never total. It's a process, and we're in the middle of that process.

Winemakers and wine companies are evolving away from cork closure. Not all of them, and those that are don't move at the same speed or with the same fervor. And the acceptance moves at its own speed. But it's happening, and I think it is a natural and reasonable evolutionary process.

One relevant datum, Hoke: on Monday, we were having a dinner/celebration at a lovely little wine bar that's opened in our small town ("Windows on the Wabash" -- catchy name ) and ended up getting 4 bottles of white wine. At the end of the meal, I saw three Stelvin caps and a Vino-Lok, but not one cork, on the table.

For the record, the wines were:

2003 Markus Huber Obere Steigen Grüner Veltliner (2 bottles)
2006 Schloss Vollrads Riesling Kabinett (Vino-Lok'd)
2005 Pine Ridge Chenin Blanc-Viognier

Mark Lipton

There are still plenty of people out there who primarily think of cork as their standard bottle finish. Not surprising as that is what has been the bottle finish for their entire lives. It's what they are used to; it's what they expect.

Burning the fall leaves in front of the house; telephone booths with walls; the 13 week, no rerun TV season; meeting people at the gate in the airport; human beings at the other end of the line when you call customer service; being able to see the ground when you look down on the engine of your car and knowing what all the parts are for; time to think instead of e-mail; good penmanship instead of fancy fonts; seasonal fruit; counting on marriages to last instead of counting your last marriage ... and soon corks in wine bottles, but I don't think it'll be such a great loss in light of so many other things.

Selective memory, Gary.

We could trot out other, and very different, selective memories, couldn't we? The Anecdotal Wars???

You're successfully and staunchly playing your desired role as Chief Recidivist and Pre-Christian Antiquarian in the game. Job well done. And when the time comes, you can be the Chief Mourner of What Was.

Hoke, speaking of sticky religious antiquity, how is it that the Christian myth has persevered so long, in spite of scientific evidence which would refute most of the story?

I think there is a parallel in that the ‘cork myth’ is attached to the human psyche in spite of growing evidence that it doesn’t make ‘sense’, the domain of which resides on a more superficial level. Unfortunately I won’t be around long enough to see if I am right.

being able to see the ground when you look down on the engine of your car and knowing what all the parts are for

Thanks, Gary; that memory tugs at me almost as much as the cork.

Burning the fall leaves in front of the house; telephone booths with walls; the 13 week, no rerun TV season; meeting people at the gate in the airport; human beings at the other end of the line when you call customer service; being able to see the ground when you look down on the engine of your car and knowing what all the parts are for; time to think instead of e-mail; good penmanship instead of fancy fonts; seasonal fruit; counting on marriages to last instead of counting your last marriage ... and soon corks in wine bottles, but I don't think it'll be such a great loss in light of so many other things.

Pretty evocative list, Gary. I'd add the following to Signs That You're Not Young Anymore: you have a landline; you're a man who doesn't put Greasy Kid Stuff into his hair; you wear a belt; you remember manual typewriters; you remember taking trips to the City Dump; you know how to do long division; you know what a carburetor, a throttle and overdrive are; you read for pleasure; you listen to the radio; you walked to school; you didn't own a credit card until you were out of college.

Mark "old fart in training" Lipton

Selective memory, Gary.

It's an instinctive defense mechanism countering permanent melancholy. If I really recalled everything ...

These were just some items which rushed through my mind when you suggested the passing of the cork, a device which has fit neatly between the bookends of my life.

Dare I say, "It's all relative." Some day my kids will probably mourn the absence of the pointy little straw which comes attached to the shelf-stable, aseptic containers of CapriSun and the like. I'm certain someone is going to poke themselves in the eye with it, sue the company, and cause the demise of this handy little innovation. And then, as they dribble cheap orange drink all over their new clothes, my kids will say, "Those were the days."

Burning the fall leaves in front of the house; telephone booths with walls; the 13 week, no rerun TV season; meeting people at the gate in the airport; human beings at the other end of the line when you call customer service; being able to see the ground when you look down on the engine of your car and knowing what all the parts are for; time to think instead of e-mail; good penmanship instead of fancy fonts; seasonal fruit; counting on marriages to last instead of counting your last marriage ... and soon corks in wine bottles, but I don't think it'll be such a great loss in light of so many other things.

Nice list, though I'm not so sure what was so great about all the fresh TV being in fall (even as a kid I wasn't a TV addict, maybe someone can explain). And I find that actually its probably easier to get seasonal frsh fruit for me as an adult in NY than it was as a kid in NC. And of course my penmanship always sucked.

But any of those are more evocative to me than cork. Besides having had corked bottles of '82 Gajas and LLC, there's the run of prematurely oxidized bottles!

Pretty evocative list, Gary. I'd add the following to Signs That You're Not Young Anymore: you have a landline; you're a man who doesn't put Greasy Kid Stuff into his hair; you wear a belt; you remember manual typewriters; you remember taking trips to the City Dump; you know how to do long division; you know what a carburetor, a throttle and overdrive are; you read for pleasure; you listen to the radio; you walked to school; you didn't own a credit card until you were out of college.

Mark "old fart in training" Lipton

I didn't walk to school after 3rd grade (we moved, it was probably 5-6 miles to my schools). Can I still be an old fart?

How was the Pine Ridge? Years ago that used to be a fave at about $4-5/bottle.

Hoke, speaking of sticky religious antiquity, how is it that the Christian myth has persevered so long, in spite of scientific evidence which would refute most of the story?

Heck, Covert, that's an easy one. You know the answer.

It's because "the Christian myth" isn't necessarily "Christian". The Christian religion, in all its current fracture, is simply a standard myth cycle that goes back far, far longer, and the genius, if you will, of Christianity is that it so handily took whatever it needed from whatever socio/religious ethos it encountered along the way and accreted it to the story.

Basic Joseph Campbell stuff.

I'm currently reading a very good book on the clash between the Persian Empire of the East and the Greek civililaztion of the West (excellent book by the way, especially in that its one of the few Western books that tells the story more from the Persian point of view than the Greeks). It goes in great detail into the Zoroastrian belief structure, Ahura Mazda, the concept of arta, and basically the Light/Darkness, Truth/Lie framework. Sooo, long story short, Christ ain't nothing new; it's just one of the latest.

(And all you frothers that take this stuff personally, it doesn't either add to or detract from what your personal beliefs are.)

Personally I have very few bad experiences with wines sealed with high-quality, solid corks. I have had many bad experiences (of the TCA sort) with wines sealed with cheap cork-dust or cork-bits-glued-together type corks (these, I think, should be banned outright in favour of screwcaps). To their credit, more and more wineries seem to be switching to screwcaps. Finally, I don't like plastic "corks": I frequently get what I call "vinyl taint" in wines bottled with such closures. And reds always taste strangely thin when bottled under those plastic corks.

In short, I voted for being OK with cork "most of the time". I like high-quality solid natural corks and screwcaps above any other compromise corks. Glass stoppers, though infrequent, are also fine.

Never. I hate cork. I would buy everything with stelvin if I could. For my peace of mind, there is enough anecdotal evidence that stelvin will work for aging - iIrc there was a piece (by Jamie Goode?) that stelvin has roughly the same oxtrans as top quality cork. And since the right amount of oxygen by received wisdom is needed for wine to age well, wouldn't this mean that stelvin and top quality cork should age equally well (assuming that stelvin doesn't have any other bits that might affect positive development?)?

-O-

Hoke, speaking of sticky religious antiquity, how is it that the Christian myth has persevered so long, in spite of scientific evidence which would refute most of the story?

Heck, Covert, that's an easy one. You know the answer...Basic Joseph Campbell stuff.

Yes, of course I know. But I think I can make the case that the cork is a good symbol for a basic archetype, too; although, I won't go through it again. I ran it down a few years ago on this forum.

Re Campbell, my Grandfather lived in an adjoining condo to Joe and his wife on Diamond Head, Oahu for many years, and I didn't know it until I attended my Grandfather's funeral. At that time Joe had recently died, but his wife, Jean, was still there. The Lanis of the two condos sat within 20 feet from the ocean at one of the prettiest spots on the whole globe. Campbell and Jean, and my Grandfather and his wife, were close friends, and my father, unbeknownst to me, had all of Campbell's books, signed of course.

I asked my Dad why he never told me, and he said he didn't know that I would have had any interest. I could have talked with Campbell at length if I had known. Just never got to Hawaii while my Grandfather was alive because it was too far a hike.

I didn't walk to school after 3rd grade (we moved, it was probably 5-6 miles to my schools). Can I still be an old fart?

Sorry, Dale, you can't, you young whippersnapper: you're a year younger than I am so by defintion you'll always be a baby

How was the Pine Ridge? Years ago that used to be a fave at about $4-5/bottle.

It was quite nice, still showing the pear fruit that I associate with it, but it was outclassed by the GV that night and is a bit light on the acid.

Mark Lipton

Too bad that the once $4 Chenin/Viognier is now $10+. Definitely outpacing inflation. At $10 lots more competition.