Do you like Gewurz, Muscat, Viognier, etc as a dinner wine

A couple of discussions got me thinking about "aromatic" varieties. I tend to use that term more for whites than reds. And within whites I tend to divide the aromatic varieties into 2 camps:
1) the more floral/musky/tropical grapes, such as Muscat, Gewurztraminer, and Viognier.

2) the more fruit meets grass grapes, such as Sauvignon Blanc and Albarino.

I often open a bottle of the latter to have with dinner. But I actually can't think of the last time I opened a bottle of the floral/musky wines for a dinner with Betsy. Sure, I might open at a dinner party. A dry Muscat is great with a first course of white asparagus, or Gewurztraminer with a gingery fish or vegetable starter. But only when we have 8 or so people, and we can use most of the bottle with modest pours- a couple ounces at a time is plenty for me. The thought of nursing an entire bottle of either through an entire meal for two just doesn't appeal. Am I alone? Do you drink a lot of these wines as your main dinner wine?

[David M. Bueker]

I don't own a lot of Gewurz, Muscat, Viognier or Albarino as they dont age as well as my beloved Riesling, but I do love to have them with dinner. I use a lot of citrus and ginger & garlic, so Gewurz and Muscat work especially well.

I hate Sauvignon Blanc, so no, I don't open it.

[Robin Garr]

The thought of nursing an entire bottle of either through an entire meal for two just doesn't appeal. Am I alone? Do you drink a lot of these wines as your main dinner wine?

I'm pretty much in agreement, Dale. I actually generally prefer the less <i>overtly</i> aromatic wines across the board, although I'm not a fundamentalist about it.

And I'm not sure I'll go as far as David in saying that I "hate" Sauvignon Blanc, but I do find that I've grown away from it in recent years and rarely buy or drink it any more ... and when I do, it will almost invariably be a Sancerre or possibly a white Bordeaux blend.

I think Gewurz is the only one of the three floral/musky/tropical white wine grapes you mention that I would consider as a dinner wine. I lived in Germany for many years and got used to the occasional Gewurztraminer from Germany or Alsace. I have paired Gewurz with fish at Legal Seafood and liked the combination as did one of my friends (the other wanted red wine).

David,

Make no mistake, a good Muscat will age - I still have some 94's that will prove that. Problem is - not many muscats are made to age, but they can be quite stunning with a respectable number of years in bottle. More specifically, Klein aux vieux Remparts, '94.

Actually, I use the aromatics (both categories you describe) for meals. Do so fairly frequently. Not necessarily for a main course feature or in isolation, but for a multi-course dinner they work wonderfully.

Also use them more in the spring and summer, because for me that's when they work best with the food and the weather and the occasion and the spirit.

It's also fundamental in my lifestyle because I tend to like---and prepare---a lot of aromatic foods...which of course work better with aromatic wines.

You do Thai and Vietnamese and Chinese a lot, and you tend not to rely on the Usual Suspects of Euro Cuisine. And, hell, Euro cuisine aint' what it used to be either. When I was in Paris in April, I saw a hell of a lot of Asian influence in the dishes offered.

But you might need to rethink...or shift and adjust, I think is a better way to say it...the way you associate your wines with your dishes and spices.

For instance, a good way to use Gewurztraminer is to whip up a Strawberry/Gewurztraminer "Gazpacho" chilled soup, using Gewurz in the soup and serving it alongside. Or make a chilled fruit cocktail with sweet muscat (major yums). Or serve Sauvignon Blanc with Ceviche. Or serve it with a variety of salads (and by salads, I don't mean iceberg lettuce with Thousand Islands, but the wonderful and amazing diveristy of salads available today).

Or if you have 'ethnic nights', as we do, where we go Indian---that's when some of those aromatic wines come in handy. Or when we look at the foods from the regions of the wines--that gives you the best clue of what the wines will work with.

And in that vein, look at some of the foods the Germans, Austrians, and Northern Italians serve their wines with. You might be surprised how exceptionally well some of those aromatics go with onions and sausages and such, Dale. And, of course, with fish. And seafood. And vegetables.

I like your perspective, Hoke. I don't tend to be as fond of combinations involving whites (aromatic or not) but then I've tended to stick to the "usual suspects" (dry whites w/ shellfish, etc). I especially like the idea of trying an aromatic white with sausage and onions.

I like your perspective, Hoke. I don't tend to be as fond of combinations involving whites (aromatic or not) but then I've tended to stick to the "usual suspects" (dry whites w/ shellfish, etc). I especially like the idea of trying an aromatic white with sausage and onions.

Well, then....try some Riesling/Sylvaner/Dry Muscat/Tocai Friulano with a dish of white sausages seethed in onions and vinegar, served with parsleyed potatoes (use those little golden yellow German potatoes) or herbed spaetzle. First time I had that was in Franconia, and it was incredible!

Or try a variation of an Irish/New England/Cajun Seafood Boil (corn on the cob, potatoes, clams/mussels, crab, shrimp and/or crawdads with seaweed and some Zatarain-ish blend steamed in a big pot, with some aromatic wine (you'll need the aromatic wine to stand up to the aromatics of the dish).

Or try fresh sage (as in a sage and browned butter sauce), either in a pasta or with veal or seafood, with an aromatic wine.

Damn. I'm hungry now.


Oooh, ooh. I forgot: Real south of France, sitting on the Riviera, Bouillabaisse (like in Villefranche-sur-Mer) with a Cassis (white wine). Nothing....and I mean NOTHING could be better.

And now I'm really hungry.

Not necessarily for a main course feature or in isolation, but for a multi-course dinner they work wonderfully.

Actually it doesn't sound like we're so different. My point wasn't that I don't drink or serve these wines, but that I seldom choose to bring them out as the sole wine of the evening. I like and cellar a fair amount of Gewurz (Boxler, Burn, and yes even the dread ZH) and certainly don't lack for opportunities for matches. But I'm always happier to open them with a first course, or maybe with a Munster after dinner, than to drink a bottle as the main (well, only) wine when its just the two of us. Even if I think Gewurz might be the best match with dinner, a little voice says "what about Chenin, what about Riesling, you know you've got a LOT of Gruner Veltliner down there" - because on some level I know after the one glass that actually goes down with dinner, I'm not going to be as happy with Gewurz solo as I would sipping a Riesling as I do the dishes.

Dry* Muscat I find a little more limiting, but it's brilliant with a few things such as white asparagus.

And my dirty little secret is I just don't care that much for Viognier. There, I've said it. Sue me


*I'm limiting my comments to dry and off-dry table wines, dessert wines are a whole 'nother thing.

And now I'm really hungry.

Uh, yeah...that would make two of us! Going out to dinner w/ Dad tonight (a former Marine, too!) so I'll have to remember some of your suggestions and see if we can find someplace that might be able to accommodate something similar (doubtful!).

Not necessarily for a main course feature or in isolation, but for a multi-course dinner they work wonderfully.

Actually it doesn't sound like we're so different. My point wasn't that I don't drink or serve these wines, but that I seldom choose to bring them out as the sole wine of the evening. I like and cellar a fair amount of Gewurz (Boxler, Burn, and yes even the dread ZH) and certainly don't lack for opportunities for matches. But I'm always happier to open them with a first course, or maybe with a Munster after dinner, than to drink a bottle as the main (well, only) wine when its just the two of us. Even if I think Gewurz might be the best match with dinner, a little voice says "what about Chenin, what about Riesling, you know you've got a LOT of Gruner Veltliner down there" - because on some level I know after the one glass that actually goes down with dinner, I'm not going to be as happy with Gewurz solo as I would sipping a Riesling as I do the dishes.

Dry* Muscat I find a little more limiting, but it's brilliant with a few things such as white asparagus.

And my dirty little secret is I just don't care that much for Viognier. There, I've said it. Sue me


*I'm limiting my comments to dry and off-dry table wines, dessert wines are a whole 'nother thing.

Yes, I think we are pretty close, Dale. I agree. I see more usage possibilties for main course/major course in a full meal with company though. And---quel horreur---when it's just the two of us it's usually whatever wine is open and available that goes with our food, whether there's rhyme or reason or not (operating upon the time honored principle of "Love the one you're with. Doo doo doo doo do.").

I think the problem with Gewurz in particular is that it is a low acid wine. Therefore it lacks the zing for a main course contendah. But that's certainly not a problem with SB or Riesling!

And I share, in large part, your feeling about Viognier. And yes, we will be condemned and villified by our so-called friends on this board. But there it is: Viognier is okay, and it can be perfectly fine in certain circumstances, but it's not a variety that lights my own personal fire all that often. And I really don't think of it as a food wine; I'm sorry: it's cocktail/sippy stuff.

Dry Muscat? Easy. Tarte a l'oignon or flammekuechen (or however the hell they spell it). Or other high savory foods. Stuff with stinky cheese melted all over it, that kind of stuff.

And if your'e limiting your comments to dry stuff and not desserty wines, then why did you even mention Z-H???

Hoke made me hungry when he got to the sage browned butter sauce with pasta or veal--I love dishes like that--gnocchi in sage butter sauce.

Condrieu is the Viognier that floats my boat but I rarely have it on hand.

K Story--one suggestion if you want Asian food is Asia Nora:
http://www.noras.com/ I've only been to the sister restaurant (Nora's on Florida Avenue--organic food, fancy and pricy but good service and the manager knows me by name and I think sometimes gives me a particularly good deal on a half-bottle of wine).

I am a big Viognier fan but have to admit that a nice summer camp-out is ideal. I usually take along Fairview, Yalumba and Cazal-Viel.

Strange that no-one has mentioned Muscadet. Very versatile in my opinion and not just with shellfish but of course this depends on the style. Up here I have never seen the oak-aged ones you all rave about! Melon de Bourgogne right?

I am a big Viognier fan but have to admit that a nice summer camp-out is ideal. I usually take along Fairview, Yalumba and Cazal-Viel.

Strange that no-one has mentioned Muscadet. Very versatile in my opinion and not just with shellfish but of course this depends on the style. Up here I have never seen the oak-aged ones you all rave about! Melon de Bourgogne right?

But I wouldn't class Melon as an aromatic variety, Bob. Wouldn't class Muscadet as an aromatic wine either---at least, not the great majority of them.

Yeah Hoke you are probably right! Guess it`s all those sea-shells. I agree with the Gewurtz and SB suggestions, have to dig out a Muscat here.

Opening a chardonnay this weekend Hoke?!!!!!

Viognier is okay, and it can be perfectly fine in certain circumstances, but it's not a variety that lights my own personal fire all that often. And I really don't think of it as a food wine; I'm sorry: it's cocktail/sippy stuff.

Cocktail/sippy stuff?

Maybe the blowsy versions.

But those Pichon wines that Stuart and Cook seem to have lots of are perfect food wines. Exactly what you want for a refreshing floral summer experience. Or a refreshing winter/spring/fall experience for that matter.

Viognier is okay, and it can be perfectly fine in certain circumstances, but it's not a variety that lights my own personal fire all that often. And I really don't think of it as a food wine; I'm sorry: it's cocktail/sippy stuff.

Cocktail/sippy stuff?

Maybe the blowsy versions.

But those Pichon wines that Stuart and Cook seem to have lots of are perfect food wines. Exactly what you want for a refreshing floral summer experience. Or a refreshing winter/spring/fall experience for that matter.

I said "all that often", didn't I? I said "perfectly fine in certain circumstances", didn't I?

And even Pichon, which I'll admit is outstanding, is not what I really think of as a food wine. Even when I've had it at Stuart's it's usually served as a starter wine.

A couple of discussions got me thinking about "aromatic" varieties. I tend to use that term more for whites than reds. And within whites I tend to divide the aromatic varieties into 2 camps:
1) the more floral/musky/tropical grapes, such as Muscat, Gewurztraminer, and Viognier.

2) the more fruit meets grass grapes, such as Sauvignon Blanc and Albarino.

Question: Why do you not consider riesling to be an aromatic variety? I think it qualifies and it is my favorite aromatic wine.

I do drink a few gewurzs, sauvignon blancs, and albarinos, but mostly I drink rieslings because I find it the most food friendly white wine. It just goes well with a lot of different dishes, has nice acidity, and can have interesting minerality.

Yes, by all means - I am very partial to overtly aromatic white grapes. Viognier is alright, but it's not among my favourites. Muscats, however, certainly are. I love dry Muscats, but the ones most commonly available to us in Ontario, it seems, are inexpensive ones from Hungary. These are good, but not always do they have the sort of concentration that you can likely expect from a wine that costs $20 and up.

Having said that, I enjoy Ironston's "Obsession" Symphony for its overtly muscatty aromas - though if I were making it, I'd make it fully dry, as it really isn't dry at all.

As far as Gewurz goes, most Ontario examples are sadly lacking in concentration. Alsatian examples rarely disappoint.

Just the other day I had a lovely organic Torrontes from Argentina - my first example of this variety. I loved it - it had a floral aroma atop a dieselly underlay. I will certainly be buying more of it.

Having said that, I enjoy Ironston's "Obsession" Symphony for its overtly muscatty aromas - though if I were making it, I'd make it fully dry, as it really isn't dry at all.

Just FYI, Paul, there used to be dry Symphony out there. One winery, de Baun in Sonoma, made primarily Symphony---and Symphony blends---ranging from bone dry to mildly sweet to intensely sweet.

Ch. de Baun failed fairly quickly though. Seems there wasn't enough market for Symphony out there, whether dry or sweet. Their old location is now a tasting room for all the brands marketed by Jess Jackson.

And now Symphony is rarely seen--the Ironstone being the prime example---and used primarily as a blending grape.

And thank you for mentioning the Torrontes, another one I thought of but failed to mention. It's definitely in the aromatic camp. One of our local sushi/fusion restaurants features it as one of their prime house wine reccos with the Japanese/sushi/sashimi dishes.

I could also add Moschofilero---but that would actually add to Dale's motif, since I don't really think of that as a 'main course dinner wine' either. It's more summer in the sun kinda stuff.

And if your'e limiting your comments to dry stuff and not desserty wines, then why did you even mention Z-H???

I said dry or off-dry, and I actually often prefer off-dry Gewurz for the food I'm serving. The lower level ZH Gewurz ("base" model, Wintzenheim, H. de Turckheim) that I buy aren't usually anywhere near sweet, though I know some of the "better" vineyards are. They function better with Asian dishes with a little heat than the Trimbach Seigneurs du Ribeaupierre, which is better in my opinion with dishes without a lot of heat. I own a grand total of 6 ZH now, 4 Gewurz and 2 PG. I no longer even consider their Rieslings.

I've drunk my last bottle, but maybe my favorite ZHs have been the Goldert Muscats, which are dry to just a touch off-dry in most vintages. Brilliant matches in my mind with asparagus dishes (white asparagus, or a Ducasse recipe for "asparagus 3 ways" Betsy sometimes does in spring). But will keep flammenkuche in mind. She sometimes makes pissaladiere, I could just switch bacon for the anchovies. Or....another confession...my stepson LOVES a Trader Joe's frozen "tarte d'alsace". Basically flammenkuche. I confess it's the one frozen food I'm very likely to grab if eating alone.

But those Pichon wines that Stuart and Cook seem to have lots of are perfect food wines. Exactly what you want for a refreshing floral summer experience. Or a refreshing winter/spring/fall experience for that matter.

These are Condrieu? Never seen producer. Tell me more.

Question: Why do you not consider riesling to be an aromatic variety? I think it qualifies and it is my favorite aromatic wine.
.

Certainly Riesling has a very aromatic nose, but in my instinctive (maybe not especially logical) categorization Riesling (and Chenin Blanc) is so about terroir/transparency that I don't mentally classify it as "aromatic." When I sniff a Gewurz, the lychee notes tend to jump out, with Muscat the musky floral thing. With Riesling the nose varies dramatically according to terroir. So it doesn't mainly associate itself with primary fruit aromas, as the ones I think of as aromatic do (that includes my "category 2" ones like Sauvignon Blanc and Albarino).

It occurs to me that the distinction I am making is also one of acidity- all of the wines I list as "non-dinner" wines (Gewurz, Viognier, and Muscat) tend towards the low-acid end, while the wines I find acceptable to go through a bottle (SB, Albarino, Riesling, Chenin) are higher acid. So maybe I could have skipped this whole thread, I generally knew I like high acid wines.

But those Pichon wines that Stuart and Cook seem to have lots of are perfect food wines. Exactly what you want for a refreshing floral summer experience. Or a refreshing winter/spring/fall experience for that matter.

These are Condrieu? Never seen producer. Tell me more.

Yes, Christophe Pichon, lovely minerally Condrieu that is neither terribly expensive nor terribly blowsy but last I checked not imported to the US, which is why Stuart and Cook used to bring their stash back directly from the Rhone.

But if you see it, worth a try.

No to all 3...Muscat, Gewurztraminer or Viognier. Three of the most over-rated whites out there. None are dry enough for my palate. Plus I don't like the floral muskiness.

Richard