Do you hate Bordeaux?

I guess it's important to avoid this debate getting too uptight and personal. I'm not too keen on hearing someone called a dick.

Nathan hasn't found value in Bdx. Maybe ... it's not to his taste, or at least he appreciates other regions better?

I'd advise Nathan to stick with wines from elsewhere - Bordeaux doesn't have to satisfy everyone's tastes or VFM expectations, in just the same way Barolo or Burgundy don't have to. It seems obvious that, on what Nathan has tasted and what he's enjoyed, Bdx isn't a happy hunting ground. Not worth beating a drum about it as the drum is drowning out much that he says that I'd agree with (Bordeaux is not without problems) - but for me the baby doesn't have to get thrown out with the bathwater. As I note David speculated, it appears Nathan is putting forward an argument rather than being open to genuine suggestions. If so then I don't see anyone winning him over, nor any benefit in that line of argument continuing.

I personally find there's value in Bordeaux - a canny buyer at auction can find some real bargains (ditto I suspect via en primeur, but not something I do). At retail in Uk there can still be successes, but it's a harder but far from impossible task.

Nathan: to change the record a little, are their any Bordeaux wines that have given you great pleasure & value in the past - has it not always been this way?

I think Jim Cowan is a gentleman and a fine taster, I find Coad funny in person and in print, and another whose notes I really respect. But I have never thought their stamp of approval was a guarantee that I would like something, nor that somehow a wine was not worthy if they hadn't posted notes.

Florida Jim??? - Rumor is he puts ice cubes in his rose. He is from the South so we can probably forgive him.

Coad??? - The only reason people like him is his shirts and good looking wife. Without that nobody would care.

Just kidding and enjoy both of their TNs but on a more serious note I am not a fan of inexpensive Bordeaux. I tend to buy good Bordeaux (at least IMO), hold it for many years and then really get my toes curled. I am not saying a $15 Bordeaux is not a pleasant drink but would probably rather have a Beaujolais or any number of interesting wines from Spain or Italy. Now support for OZ Shiraz is another thing and just plain wrong. Don't let your kids grow up and drink Shiraz.

Walt

[Jenise]

In last couple of years I've quite liked under-$15 wines like Cap de Faugeres, La Grolet "Tete de Cuvee", Lilian Ladouys, Fiefs de Lagrange, and Caronne Ste Gemme.

These are sub-15dollar wines? Lillian Ladouys I have liked, but when it was available here it was 30€; Fiefs de Lagrange is 28€; Picque Caillou was 20€. I liked Picque Caillou even that price, though.

-O

Otto, good to know you and Dale both liked the 04 PC. I bought half a dozen bottles a few months ago, haven't tasted one yet, never had the wine before and at this point I don't even have a clue what made me decide to buy them when I did! That both of you liked it is, I'm sure, a better recco than whatever I acted upon at the time.

Just kidding and enjoy both of their TNs but on a more serious note I am not a fan of inexpensive Bordeaux.

Walt,

I wish I could afford the more expensive stuff, but I do find a lot of quality in the lower end Bordeaux. Some vintages more than others. I have not yet found a bad 2000 Bordeaux at any price, and I've sample them all the way down to about $18. I am up to seventeen different chateaux to date.

Sadly, Sam, the 2000 Clerc Millon was "mediocre" even after decanting. I am not sensitive to/familiar with cork taint, but I wonder if the bottle tonight fell victim to the dreaded TCA. Just "flat" The disappointment o0f the night.

I'm familiar with the term "barnyard, " but to me almost every single wine lover/geek/fan that uses the term is using it to describe brett.

Dale, we have had almost this exact same interchange before. I am speaking about people in the sticks - regular people - who do not have your, or your friends', level of sophistication, which you probably pick up from New York City. These people I am speaking of don't like any flavor that is not like cherry pop, and when they learn the term 'barnyard', usually from me referring to the aspects you refer to, they use the term to describe any flavor that does not resemble cherry pop. You might wonder why I would associate with such people: I work with them; I wouldn't socialize with them otherwise.

Look, for the record, I'll throw out a few possibilities here:

You've raised some interesting points here, Nathan.

1) Maybe Bordeaux underperforms in the value segment because of the name on the label, "Bordeaux". With a name like that, you can coast on your laurels, confident in the assumption that you can fool some of the people all of the time.

This was very true until recently. There may still be some Bordeaux producers who believe it and there are some markets, e.g. here in Belgium amongst older consumers, where the name Bordeaux retains a certain credibility. (We have friends who look askance at anything but Bordeaux and burgundy on the table.) I believe, however, that the Bordeaux establishment has woken up to the problem.

2) Maybe Bordeaux underperforms in the value segment because there just isn't all that much quality dirt in the region - maybe the 1855ers did a pretty competent job of classifying the terroirs, and, after a point, there's a dramatic fall-off in the quality of the soil. [I.e. maybe Bordeaux is OVERPLANTED.]

Yes, I think that this is partly true. The plots capable of producing "great" quality have mostly been identified for several centuries. That, however, does not mean that some of the outlying areas are not capable of producing very decent quality and good QPR, such as Domaine de Courteillac (Bordeaux Supérieur)and Château Nodoz (Côtes de Bourg), on which I posted last month.

3) Maybe Bordeaux doesn't underperform in the value segment - maybe the value is there, but, by the time all thieves in the American 3-tier system take their cut of the action, a wine which ought to sell for $14.99 is instead selling for $39.99.

This is probably partly true, although some of the prices which people here quote in US$ are beginning to look quite attractive to me when converted into €. In the segment of € 7-15, I think that there is a lot of value available over here but it needs a good importer to pick them. (45% of the merchants here have the advantage of both proximity and of sharing a common language with French growers.) Herein, it appears to me that there may be a problem in the USA, not helped by the plethora of estates and poor marketing by the Bordeaux industry. I agree with Ian that a lot of independent wine merchants in the UK do a great job in this respect but not the supermarkets where 95% of the population buy their wine.

4) Maybe Bordeaux is priced correctly, and, in time, all of that Spanish/Australian/Argentinian/Chilean/Loire-ian/Fleurie-ian/Italian wine will rise in price to equal Bordeaux.

Looked at from here, it is only the 1er crus, super-seconds and right bank equivalents which are overpriced. I think that, for example, Chateau Pontet-Canet 2004 at € 39 holds its own with the competition from the other areas which you mention, as do Château Poujeaux at about €20 and Domaine de Couteillac at €10.
I agree that best Loire and Beaujolais provide exceptional value. However, I don't find, by and large, that Italy and Spain offer superior value for money whilst I find most Australian wines over-confected and Chilean wines sound but dull. I do, however, like the Argentinian Malbec which I have been opening this month but I do not think it competes directly in the same gastronomic segment as Bordeaux.

Where is the $14.99 wine from Bordeaux to compete with Clos de la Roillette?

Chateau La Gorce, Moulin D'Issan, and Tour de Giet are three wonderful Bordeaux (not from EDM) that sell for under $15, if you purchase wine by the case. There are plenty more. I suppose you could argue that I have no taste, but I think you would be incorrect. The fall of US dollar to finance our eradication of potential Musar makers has made me so angry that I have sought out bargains from Bordeaux for the first time in my life. Luckily I have 800 or so "good" bottles left, purchased prior to the dollar tanking. But until we can turn things around geopolitically, I will continue to purchase lots of what I call "$14 bottles" from Bordeaux. Serendipitously, I have come to appreciate them and find many almost as lovely as wines I used to pay $35 to $50 for.

I had a simple dinner here in Bordeaux with several Bordeaux wine professionals. We drank 5 bottles and none was Bordeaux, although all were French, mostly Languedoc and a stellar Jurançon at the end of the meal. Their views on the subject of this thread echoed many of those that have been expressed here with regard to beginning your career with a Bordeaux epiphany and then moving on to other tasting adventures but always coming back to Bordeaux.

I think that these Bordeaux professionals are suffering from a commercially dangerous delusion if they believe the "always coming back to Bordeaux". I never completely abandoned Bordeaux but now only drink it two or three times a month. However, I know quite a few people who have given up completely on Bordeaux, including some ITB. An example of this is Liz and Mike Berry, who used to run the superb La Vigneronne wine merchants in Kensington and now run Grand Cru Wines, a mail order business for the UK market; at la Vigneronne, they proposed very little Bordeaux to their customers but offered a wide and excellent range from other French regions. This inevitably influenced their very loyal customers away from Bordeaux. Here in Belgium there are also several excellent merchants who offer very little Bordeaux.

Tim,

You wrote:

"I think that these Bordeaux professionals are suffering from a commercially dangerous delusion if they believe the "always coming back to Bordeaux".

Personally, I don't think they are not suffereing from any delusion whatsoever.

The widespread ignorance of good mid-range Bordeaux and the justified criticisms of cheap Bordeaux have surfaced in this thread.

As for the great wines of Bordeaux, there is no equivalent, and the people Randy had dinner with are right.
If traditional wine buyers can't afford great Bordeaux, there are new ones to take their place... Believe me, I'm not happy about this develpment, but it is there for all to see.

Lower tier Bordeaux is in trouble. But great Bordeaux remains the cock of the walk.

In this sense, those Bordeaux merchants were spot on.

Markets are changing. I do not doubt that Bordeaux has given way to other regions in Belgium (and has fared very badly in England of late, along with most other French wines). But it helps to see things globally.

Best regards,
Alex R.

at la Vigneronne, they proposed very little Bordeaux to their customers but offered a wide and excellent range from other French regions. This inevitably influenced their very loyal customers away from Bordeaux. Here in Belgium there are also several excellent merchants who offer very little Bordeaux.

Thinking a bit more about this, I'm wondering whether one problem here may not be inability (through working capital considerations and lack of demand at the stratospheric prices) to offer a complete range of Bordeaux, including 1er crus, etc. A range of Bordeaux topping at the level of 3ème or 4ème would seem curiously stunted and would be unsatisfying to the committed professional. The merchants whom I have in mind here offer top wines from all the other regions which they propse.

1) The ripeness, sun and warmth of Bordeaux mean it can not compete with super aromatic New world Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon. The Bordeaux wine can never be new world wines or compete with them.

2) In order to be successful most expert seems to mean that they should copy the new world.

It is my conviction that if Bordeaux is going to be successful outside the top estates like Grand Cru Classe etc it must sell by terroir, it must be Bordeaux not like a Chilean or Australian wine.

It is my idea that the Chateaux that are struggling now are capt in this duality. They haven't been able to make successful what they did, so now they turn to make more concentrated aromatic wines inspired by the new world and hope it will work out. Which in my view it doesn't.


My recipe for success is: Better wines with Bordeaux typicality and market it successful. I have meet the industry in Bordeaux. I think to do this, they must first change themselves, that, I believe, is one of the biggest obstacle in the future of Bordeaux.

Amen.

Tim,

You wrote:

"I think that these Bordeaux professionals are suffering from a commercially dangerous delusion if they believe the "always coming back to Bordeaux".

Personally, I don't think they are not suffereing from any delusion whatsoever.

The widespread ignorance of good mid-range Bordeaux and the justified criticisms of cheap Bordeaux have surfaced in this thread.

As for the great wines of Bordeaux, there is no equivalent, and the people Randy had dinner with are right.
If traditional wine buyers can't afford great Bordeaux, there are new ones to take their place... Believe me, I'm not happy about this develpment, but it is there for all to see.

Lower tier Bordeaux is in trouble. But great Bordeaux remains the cock of the walk.

In this sense, those Bordeaux merchants were spot on.

Markets are changing. I do not doubt that Bordeaux has given way to other regions in Belgium (and has fared very badly in England of late, along with most other French wines). But it helps to see things globally.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Alex,

IMHO, these professionals are deluding themselves if they do not realize that the inaccessibility of great Bordeaux is turning a lot of people, including professionals, off ALL Bordeaux. These disillusioned customers (unlike, say, Covert) are not scaling down to more affordable Bordeaux but are quitting the region for good.

For some reason Burgundy does not yet seem to have that problem. Some grands crus from less famous domaines are still almost accessible but, in the middle range (€ 15 - 60), I think that there is more reliable value in Bordeaux.

Tim,

Your wrote:

>IMHO, these professionals are deluding themselves if they do not realize that the inaccessibility of great Bordeaux is >turning a lot of people, including professionals, off ALL Bordeaux. These disillusioned customers (unlike, say, Covert) are >not scaling down to more affordable Bordeaux but are quitting the region for good.

Insofar as there has *always* been a confusion between the words "Bordeaux" and "great growthn" I see what you mean.

Justified or not, there is a knock-on effect.

Best regards,
Alex R.

As I note David speculated, it appears Nathan is putting forward an argument rather than being open to genuine suggestions. If so then I don't see anyone winning him over, nor any benefit in that line of argument continuing.

Look, ask yourself the following question: When was the last time you tasted a $15 dollar Bordeaux, and adjectives like "Charming", "Delightful", or "Intriguing" came to mind?

Or that you exclaimed to yourself, "Wow, that was yummy"?

I can get that in the $100-$150 price range, and occasionally in the $50-$75 price range, but it ain't happening at $9.99 to $14.99.

Where is the $14.99 wine from Bordeaux to compete with Clos de la Roillette?

Chateau La Gorce, Moulin D'Issan, and Tour de Giet are three wonderful Bordeaux (not from EDM) that sell for under $15, if you purchase wine by the case.

Look, I don't mean to be argumentative, and I've allowed my subscription to Wine-Searcher Pro to lapse, but this is what I'm seeing at free Wine-Searcher:

2003 Chateau Gaillard De La Gorce Saint Emilion Grand Cru
$24.99
one USA listing, New Jersey
http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/La+Gorce/2003/USA-/USD/A/-/0

2005 Moulin D'Issan
two USA listings, both in New York
http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/Moulin+D%27Issan/2005/USA-/USD/A/-/0

Tour de Giet
no listings anywhere in the world for any vintages
[misspelling, maybe?]
http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/Tour+Giet/

So what I'm seeing is:

1) One wine which is way out of the price range and is being advertised in only one store in the country, and
2) A wine which is available in only two stores in the country, and
3) A wine which doesn't appear to exist.

Which, again, is not to say that they aren't very nice wines - I will take your word for it that they are.

It's just that I [personally] will NEVER see them, much less taste them, so, from my point of view, they might as well not exist.

By contrast, I've got at least two stores [different, non-affiliated, competing with one another] within five miles of my house which sell Clos de la Roillette for about $14.99.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there might be a third store [a new retail/winebar/coffeeklatch combo], just two or three miles from my house, which could have CdlR as well.

Nathan,

Because you are (rhetorical you!) ignorant of something does not mean it does not exist...

Reality check.
There are some 6,000 wine châteaux in Bordeaux.
We have understood by now that few of these seem to make it to retail outlets near where you live.
Fine. But I am far from the only person on this thread who has tried, mostly diplomatically, to tell you that there are loads of wines that have escaped your notice. But they're out there, Nathan! They most definitely are!!!

If you want to speak about your disappointment with the lousy range of medium-priced Bordeaux in your area, who am I to disagree with you? However, with regard to the category *as a whole*, I can say with certainty that you are off-base.

Best regards,
Alex R.

If you want to speak about your disappointment with the lousy range of medium-priced Bordeaux in your area, who am I to disagree with you? However, with regard to the category *as a whole*, I can say with certainty that you are off-base.

I am happy to concede that there might be oceans' worth of outstanding low-end Bordeaux out there somewhere [like that continent-sized garbage dump just to the east of Hawaii which no one seemed to know about until a few days ago], and that somehow, in a decade in this hobby, I've managed to miss intersecting with it at every tasting I've ever attended, and in every professional review I've ever read, and at every internet bulletin board I've scoured, looking for leads on great values in wine.

Maybe it's there - but I'll have to take your word for it.

Because, from my perspective, it's about as real as Bigfoot or the Abominable Snowman.

[Jenise]

Tour de Giet
no listings anywhere in the world for any vintages
[misspelling, maybe?]
http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/Tour+Giet/

Covert misspelled it, it's Griet, with an 'r'. But no matter--Wine Library in New Jersey recently had it for a very good price, $12 ish I believe, I know because I attempted to order some (unsuccessful due to NJ not shipping to my state, Washington). Are you unable to have wine shipped to you, or do you just insist on finding it available locally? If the latter, blame your retailers, not the wine.

Are you unable to have wine shipped to you, or do you just insist on finding it available locally? If the latter, blame your retailers, not the wine.

By and large, with very few exceptions, I just don't consider $15 bottles of wine to be "ship-worthy".

Certainly not if I haven't tasted them a priori.

A $15 bottle of wine is something that you grab on a lark from your local retailer, or that you stumble upon at a free tasting.

Spending $15 + at least $5 shipping & handling for the privilege of discovering that you don't care for the wine is just nuts.

Again: If I have to order these wines from stores which are 500 miles away, then they might as well not exist.

I don't have that problem with Australia, Chile, Argentina, the Loire, Beaujolais Cru, the Rhone, the Languedoc, lesser Italians [i.e. not the three B's], Spain, etc etc etc. Occasionally even Burgundy [especially Bourgogne Blanc, although, admittedly, affordable red Burgundy is getting pretty rare these days].

The wines are there, they are waiting for me, I can pick from them at my leisure, and merchants are reading and willing to open them for me to sample for free.

Why can't Bordeaux do that?

Nathan,

Bordeaux can indeed!
You just don't know how to look!

Best regards,
Alex R.

[David M. Bueker]

Nathan,

Let's face it, you don't want to be converted. That's ok. Let it go.

Tonight I'm going to open a lovely 2001 Clos L'Eglise (Cotes de Castillon) that cost me $14 on futures in 2003. IS it still that same price? No. That's not the fault of the Bordelais. The Euro and the market for fine wine have done their work. I still love the stuff though.

Tour de Giet
no listings anywhere in the world for any vintages
[misspelling, maybe?]
http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/Tour+Giet/

Covert misspelled it, it's Griet, with an 'r'. But no matter--Wine Library in New Jersey recently had it for a very good price, $12 ish I believe, I know because I attempted to order some (unsuccessful due to NJ not shipping to my state, Washington). Are you unable to have wine shipped to you, or do you just insist on finding it available locally? If the latter, blame your retailers, not the wine.

Actually, I think it's Tour de Guiet. and WineLibrary still has 2003 for $10.99. And WS shows it available near Nathan (Raleigh Wine Merchants) at $14. I've never tried, I tend to be wary of 2003 in general, especially Right Bank.
It does seem to me that as issue seems to be availability near him, the more sensible approach would be asking merchants why they don't stock more reasonable Bdx, rather than declaring their nonexistence. I did just look at Carolina Wine, the only Bdx they seem to have under $20 is the not very good '03 Villars, so to me the issue is merchant's choices, not Bordeaux's performance. I could name plenty of retailers that only stock DuBoeuf Beaujolais-Village or maybe Chateau de Chaize Brouilly, but doesn't make me say all under $15 Beaujolais is crap.

As I note David speculated, it appears Nathan is putting forward an argument rather than being open to genuine suggestions. If so then I don't see anyone winning him over, nor any benefit in that line of argument continuing.

Look, ask yourself the following question: When was the last time you tasted a $15 dollar Bordeaux, and adjectives like "Charming", "Delightful", or "Intriguing" came to mind?

Not many $15 dollar wines I'd say those words about from anywhere - or rather the hit rate at that level is pretty poor in my experience. As I said before, a canny buyer can still get great value - see recent notes here from me on Ch Pavie 1971 (I think I posted a note on one of the bottles) and Ch Lagrange 1962. Not $15 but maybe $25-$30 a bottle. A steaming bargain at that price IMO.

However you presumably are referring to recently released wines and I have no experience in this area (a bottle of La Tour Leognan 2005 white and a bottle of Roc du Lussac (Lussac St Emilion) 2005 sit in the cellar for a taste sometime - the latter I expect little of being a supermarket 'half-price' offer). Might I'll try a Ch. Beaumont, Ch Pitray or La Tour de Mons from a good source, that would all come in at or under $15 - I've seen good opinions on them and am tempted to try a bottle. Maybe the lack of recent tastings/purchases implicitly supports your argument, in that obviously I don't expect great things and have bought accordingly. In reality I try to keep an open mind and that's why a couple of bottles are there and other 'tasting bottles' may follow.

I would counsel you to stop banging this drum - essentially it appears to me (and I think earlier posters feel more strongly), that you're looking to win an argument - not seeking inspiration to explore low-end value in Bordeaux. To be honest this is not the best forum for argumentative discourse, as it's strength (IMO) lies in offering ideas and inspiration, looking to share experiences and opinions and compare to one's own. If you're looking for an adversarial debate, then I'd point you towards e-bob as it's got much more of that flavour there. It might make for a very fruity debate over there and they seem to enjoy such debates.

However you could say what Bordeaux you've enjoyed in the past and thus show a different perspective to your position so far...

regards

Ian