Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker
Victorwine wrote:But if you really think about it in reality there is no such thing as a “single” Cabernet Sauvignon vine. One reference book lists 19 different clones of Cabernet Sauvignon (and surely with the passing of time there will be more) with characteristic differences. Differences between clones are only slight but some can be fairly significant and important. (Varieties are the result of sexual reproduction between two different varieties of the same species; clones are the result of asexual reproduction or vegetative propagation of a single vine). To distinguish between the many different clones nurserymen/women assign them numbers. If the difference however is very significant or important instead of just a number a “name” may be issued. So IMHO the term Cabernet Sauvignon doesn’t represent a “single vine” but a “family of vines”.
Salute
Oliver McCrum
Wine guru
1076
Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:08 am
Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont
Bob Ross wrote:"We lose words when those words are mis-used; in effect the word varietal is no longer alive, because even the thoughtful reader would have to look twice at it. And this is generally the case, misuse leads to loss. I like having all my words, and all my wines."
There's not much to fear, Oliver; "misuse" tends to show that a word is alive and kicking and picking up new meanings. It's very instructive to read the history of "variety" in the OED; there are over 20 distinct meanings over the past five centuries, some quite technical, others quite general and non- specific, and some now "obs."
The Internet makes it easy and fun to see how folks are using "varietal" as a noun, not only the accepted use as a noun for single variety wines, but some of the other uses , as well.
Never fear, "Fighting Varietals" will keep "varietals" alive and well.
Bob Ross wrote:Unfortunately for that rather romantic notion, the OED indicated then [and now] that for over a thousand years English has used "home" to mean "house" -- "the stately homes of England" from the 1800s, King Lear's use of "home" for "house" in Shakespeare, etc. etc.
“This was logical but as not infrequent with logic, wrong.”
Oliver McCrum
Wine guru
1076
Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:08 am
Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont
David Creighton
Wine guru
1217
Wed May 24, 2006 10:07 am
ann arbor, michigan
Hoke
Achieving Wine Immortality
11420
Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am
Portland, OR
Oliver McCrum wrote:Hoke,
Your post is a triumph, telling us all how to behave while deploring the tendency for people to tell other people how to behave.
There is a parallel to this discussion about language in the world of wine: what is wrong with people making cheesy, frooty wines in, say, Cote-Rotie? If that's what people want to drink then everyone should do what they want. That's the way things are going, who are we to judge, et cetera.
The problem is that if we continue in this direction there will be nothing but frooty wines, and we will be reduced to a fifty-word vocabulary*. I know the world is headed in that direction; as should be obvious to you we all know that, but I don't like it and I won't contribute to it.
*We lose words when those words are mis-used; in effect the word varietal is no longer alive, because even the thoughtful reader would have to look twice at it. And this is generally the case, misuse leads to loss. I like having all my words, and all my wines.
Max Hauser wrote:Bob Ross wrote:Unfortunately for that rather romantic notion, the OED indicated then [and now] that for over a thousand years English has used "home" to mean "house" -- "the stately homes of England" from the 1800s, King Lear's use of "home" for "house" in Shakespeare, etc. etc.
Yes to the trees, no to the forest. Quoth Barbara Tuchman (in The Zimmerman Telegram):“This was logical but as not infrequent with logic, wrong.”
It's what I said about nuance. Thousand years or not, just within living memory US salespeople started using "home" as a commercial euphemism. It thus joined a legacy of forced euphemisms that numb the ear with repetition, without losing their obnoxiousness. "Pre-owned" for a used car (can you really imagine saying that with a straight face?) It isn't limited to commercial salespeople: crippling injuries I heard of as a child became "handicaps" when I was an adolescent and "challenges" today. This is not so far from Orwell's "War is peace" and "Freedom is slavery" -- which echo real historical euphemisms. (E.g. the 1938 "We live more joyfully" propaganda campaign under Stalin, when the "we" had recently shrunk by some 10% through executions and a similar fraction consigned to the state administration for labor camps, in Russian Glavnoye Upravleniye LAGerey.)
Peter May
Pinotage Advocate
4012
Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:24 am
Snorbens, England
Bob Ross wrote: Unfortunately for that rather romantic notion, the OED indicated then [and now] that for over a thousand years English has used "home" to mean "house" -- "the stately homes of England" from the 1800s,
Hoke wrote:
I have enough confidence in both wine and language that I feel they will survive us, both the traditionalists and the innovators.
James Roscoe
Chat Prince
11057
Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:43 pm
D.C. Metro Area - Maryland
Thomas wrote:Hoke wrote:
I have enough confidence in both wine and language that I feel they will survive us, both the traditionalists and the innovators.
Hoke,
Have you spoken to any Latin-speaking Romans lately...it's been known to happen
Bob Ross wrote:“This was logical but as not infrequent with logic, wrong.”
Thanks, Max, it's an honor to have a Tuchman quote brought into a discussion against my position.
It gave me a chance to refresh my memory of her discussion of Zimmerman admitting authorship of the telegram, and I found to my delight that Amazon has that part of the book in full text.
It gave me a chance to share Lansing's astonishment at Zimmerman's admission for a second time.
Thanks, Bob
Hoke
Achieving Wine Immortality
11420
Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am
Portland, OR
Thomas wrote:Hoke wrote:
I have enough confidence in both wine and language that I feel they will survive us, both the traditionalists and the innovators.
Hoke,
Have you spoken to any Latin-speaking Romans lately...it's been known to happen
Hoke
Achieving Wine Immortality
11420
Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am
Portland, OR
James Roscoe wrote:Thomas wrote:Hoke wrote:
I have enough confidence in both wine and language that I feel they will survive us, both the traditionalists and the innovators.
Hoke,
Have you spoken to any Latin-speaking Romans lately...it's been known to happen
The great think about Hoke is that he KNEW Julius Caesar!
Bob Ross wrote:
The insurance business changed the title from fire insurance to homeowners insurance in part to get folks to focus on the warm and fuzzy feelings. [Homeowners could theoretically mean insurance in case of divorce, I suppose.]
Same for life insurance -- which is really death insurance.
One purpose of language is to persuade, and people's choices of words helps us understand their motivations.
Regards, Bob
Bob Ross wrote:I couldn't understand how a Realtor could sell me a "home" -- I thought we needed a "house" and it was up to Janet and me to create the "home." / Unfortunately for that rather romantic notion, the OED indicated that for over a thousand years English has used "home" to mean "house"...
Bob Ross wrote:Peter, the OED suggests the word now has both meanings ... "[Home] In N. America and Australasia (and increasingly elsewhere), freq. used to designate a private house or residence merely as a building."
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