cuvee and meritage?

"That's not a good test."

Depends what you're trying to accomplish, Thomas. At a wine tasting, bring a bottle of Hearty Burgundy, and you can be pretty sure it will rank pretty low in the evening's voting.

At a double blind tasting, results might be unpredictable -- they can be fun but they are also lots of work. And, if you did a double blind and the Hearty Burgundy showed well -- well, that might reflect more on the tasters than the wines. I might not report the results ... or might not be permitted to do so.

But we all had great fun, mostly at the expense of the "wine expert" who brought the CdP. And, it sure tasted good to everyone that evening -- sort of the point of wine drinking in my book.

As you can tell, I didn't keep formal notes from the event -- partly I was focusing on cooking and hosting and having fun -- and partly because of the very reason you mention -- it was a bad test.

Regards, Bob

PS: how about a back and forth on "claret" on your site -- I'm waiting for some stuff from Australia on sulfites before posting my article on that subject. B.

"That's not a good test."

Depends what you're trying to accomplish, Thomas. At a wine tasting, bring a bottle of Hearty Burgundy, and you can be pretty sure it will rank pretty low in the evening's voting.

At a double blind tasting, results might be unpredictable -- they can be fun but they are also lots of work. And, if you did a double blind and the Hearty Burgundy showed well -- well, that might reflect more on the tasters than the wines. I might not report the results ... or might not be permitted to do so.

But we all had great fun, mostly at the expense of the "wine expert" who brought the CdP. And, it sure tasted good to everyone that evening -- sort of the point of wine drinking in my book.

As you can tell, I didn't keep formal notes from the event -- partly I was focusing on cooking and hosting and having fun -- and partly because of the very reason you mention -- it was a bad test.

Regards, Bob

PS: how about a back and forth on "claret" on your site -- I'm waiting for some stuff from Australia on sulfites before posting my article on that subject. B.

Sure. What direction are you thinking? It might be good to follow the Meritage entry with a Claret talk. Send me your thoughts via email.

The "claret" story has apparently been concluded by the US conceding to the EU; there's a good summary at Impact of the U.S. /EU Wine Agreement on Certificates of Label Approval for Wine Labels with a Semi-Generic Name or Retsina. [The earlier link is no longer working. I believe this one will work as a general overview and will lead you to the Impact Statement: US/EC Wine Agreement.]

Some extracts:

Semi-Generic Names

The Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (IRC) at 26 U.S.C. 5388(c) defines each semi-generic name as a name of geographic significance that is also a designation of class and type for wine. The IRC further states that a semi-generic name may be used to designate wine of an origin other than that indicated by its name only if there appears, in direct conjunction with the designation, an appropriate appellation of origin disclosing the true place of origin and the wine so designated conforms to the standard of identity. The semi-generic names and the place of origin indicated by each name are:

Burgundy (France) Malaga (Spain)
Chablis (France) Marsala (Italy)
Champagne (France) Moselle (France)
Chianti (Italy) Port (Portugal)
Claret (France) Rhine (Germany)
Haut Sauterne (France) Sauterne (France)
Hock (Germany) Sherry (Spain)
Madeira (Portugal) Tokay (Hungary)

Note: Angelica is a semi-generic name for wine of U.S. origin; however, the Agreement does not affect its use, and it is not subject to any of the information in this circular.

***

Background

In the Agreement, the U.S. made a commitment to seek to change the legal status of the semi-generic names and of Retsina to restrict their use solely to wines originating in the applicable EU member state, with certain exceptions. Because the IRC specifically defines semi-generic names, this law must be changed in order to restrict the usage of the names to wines originating in the EU. Assuming the law is so changed, the Agreement contains an exception to this rule. We refer to this exception as the “grandfather” provision. Under the “grandfather” provision, any person or his or her successor in interest may continue to use a semi-generic name or Retsina on a label of a wine not originating in the EU, provided the semi-generic name or Retsina is only used on labels for wine bearing the same brand name, or the brand name and the fanciful name, if any, that appear on a COLA that was issued prior to March 10, 2006.

After researching the use of "claret" in dozens of sources in both Europe and the US over the past 300 years, this is clearly a political/diplomatic solution. A few oddities:

1. "Claret" was used as a generic descriptor for a light red and later a red wine, not only in the UK but for over 300 hundred years in the US.

2. "Claret" was never used in France to label any wine, Bordeaux or otherwise.

3. "Claret" was used on blended wines that came from a number of regions of France, not just Bordeaux, and from other countries in Europe -- Spain and Germany in particular.

Citations on request.

Regards, Bob

Ross: redoutable researcher, relentlessly rational, resolutely reasonable.

Whatever wines or grapes are cheap. In the 70's Paul Masson 'Hearty Burgundy' (what a contradiction in terms) had Zinfandel in it. BTW, I liked it.

I think you'll find that Burgundy used to have a reputation over here for being hearty too. I think the idea harks back to the days when Burgundy was made in the Rhone and Algeria

I say ditto to what Hoke posted. Thanks Bob R, job well done.

Salute

Wow Bob...thanks for all that info and research! Very interesting!

This is the "oddity" that I find most curious:

Semi-Generic Names

The Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (IRC) at 26 U.S.C. 5388(c) defines each semi-generic name as a name of geographic significance that is also a designation of class and type for wine. The IRC further states that a semi-generic name may be used to designate wine of an origin other than that indicated by its name only if there appears, in direct conjunction with the designation, an appropriate appellation of origin disclosing the true place of origin and the wine so designated conforms to the standard of identity. The semi-generic names and the place of origin indicated by each name are:


Claret (France)


2. "Claret" was never used in France to label any wine, Bordeaux or otherwise.

I have family in England, and they say that they call a Claret any light red table wine. If it's a nice Bordeaux, than they wouldn't call it a Claret, they would say it's a Bordeaux (or more likely they would call it by it's Appellation). From what I inferred, a claret is not a term of prestige over there. I would have never guessed that the word "Claret" would be considered in the same class as "Burgundy" or "Chablis".

Thanks, Hoke -- high praise from a master.

I'm working up a summary of my "research" -- a short journal of a small part of the journey with lots of links in support of assertions. Great fun!

Thank you Victor -- it was a fun exploration of the history of wine, and US and European wine culture as well. More anon.

Your family's impression are consistent with the one of the meanings specified in the OED: "A name originally given (like F. vin clairet) to wines of yellowish or light red colour, as distinguished alike from ‘red wine’ and ‘white wine’; the contrast with the former ceased about 1600, and it was apparently then used for red wines generally, in which sense it is still, or was recently, dial."

My impression was the same as yours -- "claret" was an old fashioned word in English English, and little used to describe wines from Bordeaux. In American English, it has had the meaning of red wine since the 1590's when William Penn used it thus to describe a native wine of Pennsylvania -- it was widely used in the 1900s and early 20th century here to mean any red wine, particularly Zinfandel, but many other types of wine as well.

More anon: I'm wrapping up this project with a short journal about my "research", collecting the major references consulted. I'll post it here in due course.

Regards, Bob

I have family in England, and they say that they call a Claret any light red table wine. If it's a nice Bordeaux, than they wouldn't call it a Claret, they would say it's a Bordeaux (or more likely they would call it by it's Appellation). From what I inferred, a claret is not a term of prestige over there.

Current usage obviously varies over here then.

Every winedrinker I know that would have an opinion on the matter would agree with Warren on this - Claret is a red Bordeaux - pure and simple and irrespective of quality. (Though the term "luncheon claret" is a somewhat disparaging term.) And it emphatically is still used.

Some quotes quickly harvested from a UK-based board: "This is a vintage I really like, but it seems to be becoming increasingly unfashionable...to my mind they're really classic clarets with a superb savoury edge, and are only just starting to come around at the top level." (referring to Ch Margaux). "Blood red optic with a light pink rim, the nose was classic Claret" (referring to Pontet-Canet ). "Mature burg, mature claret, Trevallon (91), 98 Eileen Hardy shiraz." "Ribeye steak rare, nice mature claret if I wasn't paying might go for a Mouton 1945."

I am not too surprised to see protected wine names that are not used in the country of origin. Britain is still a large market for French wines, and France obviously would not want to lose part of it to "imposter" clarets. And we Brits want to know what we are drinking if we are offered Claret. Claret is not alone in this regard BTW - Sherry, Hock and Rhine are also on the list of protected names - all English language versions of continental wine names.

The surprise for me was to see that Moselle wine comes from France

Current usage obviously varies over here then.

And that's exactly the point that Bob has been making, Steve. Usage does vary. And understanding of the word varies as well.

You can't stop language from changing...though every society I can think of has tried. Governments can legislate, pontificators can pontificate, stylists can fulminate, but the language does and will change.

Any linguist will tell you that language is living, and constantly evolving (and purists would say devolving ).

I believe it is clearly understood that within the small--small as a percentage of total population, and as a percentage of total drinking population... wine aficionado population in Britain, claret is perceived as Bordeaux red. Outside of that small (but passionate and particular) group, however, even in Britain, there is a different perception of the word.

I'd even go so far as to wonder how many people have no idea whatsoever what the word means.

As you go further out from the Euro-centric world, it gets even more tenuous.

And mind you, neither side of this debate is "wrong"....the word means what you believe it means. So when Peter, or you, say claret, you might mean one thing, but when Bob and I say it, we might mean something entirely different. Both correct, however.

As you say, usage varies.

Hey, in a few hundred years, none of us will be speaking "English" anyway. Not as we know it. And all this will be moot (another word that has gone through some serious changes in its lifetime.)

Thanks for the input, Steve. I hadn't realized there were such strong feelings about the word "claret" among British wine drinkers.

It's awfully hard for me to see how a wine labeled "1971 Penfolds St Henri Claret" or "Coppola 2004 Black Diamond Claret - Red Wine" is offensive or even confusing to UK wine drinkers, or could hurt the sales of French wines in the UK.

Of course, Penfolds folded on the issue and changed the name of the wine to "St Henri Shiraz", apparently voluntarily, in view of the impending EU/Australian trade deal.

But EU negotiators sold the British/French "claret" lovers down the river when it came to the US. "Burgundy" too for that matter -- the pleasures and confusions created by grandfathering! Always gives the negotiators a chance to make a deal -- no matter how inconsistent it appears to others.

Example: I've now reviewed the EU rules, and the bottom line is really odd: Now the word "Claret" cannot be used to label any wine made in the EU, since Bordeaux wines were never so labeled. But, they can be so labeled under the US/EU trade agreement, provided the name appeared on a COLA that was issued prior to March 10, 2006 -- for example Coppola's Black Diamond Series Claret.

Thanks again. Bob

Thanks for the input, Steve. I hadn't realized there were such strong feelings about the word "claret" among British wine drinkers.

It's awfully hard for me to see how a wine labeled "1971 Penfolds St Henri Claret" or "Coppola 2004 Diamond Claret - Red Wine" is offensive or even confusing to UK wine drinkers, or could hurt the sales of French wines in the UK.

Of course, Penfolds folded on the issue and change the name of the wine to "St Henri Shiraz", apparently voluntarily, in view of the impending EU/Australian trade deal.

But EU negotiators sold the British/French "claret" lovers down the river when it came to the US. "Burgundy" too for that matter -- the pleasures and confusions created by grandfathering! Always gives the negotiators a chance to make a deal -- no matter how inconsistent it appears to others.

Thanks again. Bob

Quite. The only time so-called grandfathering is any good is when it is your practice that has been grandfathered...

In any event, I still cannot get my mind around sanctioning a term that has absolutely no regulatory or legal standing.

I suggest Peter and Steve, and other like-minded fellows, join together and trademark the word claret. Better yet, get someone from Bordeaux to do it.

I've now reviewed the EU rules, and the bottom line is really odd: Now the word "Claret" cannot be used to label any wine made in the EU, since Bordeaux wines were never so labeled.

Do you mean "cannot be used to label any wine made in the EU and sold in the US"? The term Claret is certainly used on Bordeaux bottles over here.

Concerning the various meanings that Claret may have... I agree that MOST Brits, even most wine drinking Brits, will not know what Claret is. Neither will they be able to give coherent definitions of many other wines.
I understand that usage has varied through history, and that some Brits today may also give the word different meanings.

But I honestly think you are deceiving yourselves if you believe there is any serious doubt over here as to what the word REALLY means over here. I invite you to do the searching of UK websites - forums and wine merchants - for yourself. I guarantee you will see a consistent picture emerge.

But I honestly think you are deceiving yourselves if you believe there is any serious doubt over here as to what the word REALLY means over here. I invite you to do the searching of UK websites - forums and wine merchants - for yourself. I guarantee you will see a consistent picture emerge.

Steve, I believe we've come to the point where we are saying the same thing, but coming to two different interpretations of what we're saying.

I think where you stand depends on precisely where you think the center of the universe is.

Your family's impression are consistent with the one of the meanings specified in the OED: "A name originally given (like F. vin clairet) to wines of yellowish or light red colour, as distinguished alike from ‘red wine’ and ‘white wine’; the contrast with the former ceased about 1600, and it was apparently then used for red wines generally, in which sense it is still, or was recently, dial."

Er, yes. "dial" means "dialect".

And the rest of the quote reads "(cf. also 3) [which is a reference to the colour] Now applied to the red wines imported from Bordeaux, generally mixed with Benicarlo, or some full-bodied French wine."

No longer generally mixed with Benicarlo though! Not since AC laws were applied, and UK merchants were fobidden to stick anything in a bottle labelled Claret.

I think where you stand depends on precisely where you think the center of the universe is.

Nothing to do with the centre (sic ) of the universe. I am happy for you guys to give your own meaning to the word. Just wanted to explain what it means here.

I much prefer Burgundy anyway. But not the hearty sort.

I have family in England, and they say that they call a Claret any light red table wine. If it's a nice Bordeaux, than they wouldn't call it a Claret, they would say it's a Bordeaux (or more likely they would call it by it's Appellation). From what I inferred, a claret is not a term of prestige over there.

Current usage obviously varies over here then.

Every winedrinker I know that would have an opinion on the matter would agree with Warren on this - Claret is a red Bordeaux - pure and simple and irrespective of quality. (Though the term "luncheon claret" is a somewhat disparaging term.) And it emphatically is still used.

Some quotes quickly harvested from a UK-based board: "This is a vintage I really like, but it seems to be becoming increasingly unfashionable...to my mind they're really classic clarets with a superb savoury edge, and are only just starting to come around at the top level." (referring to Ch Margaux). "Blood red optic with a light pink rim, the nose was classic Claret" (referring to Pontet-Canet ). "Mature burg, mature claret, Trevallon (91), 98 Eileen Hardy shiraz." "Ribeye steak rare, nice mature claret if I wasn't paying might go for a Mouton 1945."

I am not too surprised to see protected wine names that are not used in the country of origin. Britain is still a large market for French wines, and France obviously would not want to lose part of it to "imposter" clarets. And we Brits want to know what we are drinking if we are offered Claret. Claret is not alone in this regard BTW - Sherry, Hock and Rhine are also on the list of protected names - all English language versions of continental wine names.

The surprise for me was to see that Moselle wine comes from France

Thank you Steve. I appreciate your point of view. I am from the US and a real neophyte when it comes to wine. My husband is from the UK and so is his family, so it was their opinion regarding the term claret, that I was sharing. He said it was any light red table wine, and that when he thinks of a claret, he thinks of something that is a "house wine". He likened it to when an American goes out to a mediocre restaurant and you order a "glass of red wine", you most likely get a merlot...usually of fair/poor quality. They are big wine drinkers, but by no means oenophiles. My husband does have a close friend in the UK who is an avid wine enthusiast...as soon as I have a chance, I will ask him what he thinks. It is very interesting that there are so many differing opinions about it. Thank you for the information.

I remember on my first trip to England, at a hotel in London I decided to find out what Hock wine was. Ordered a bottle and the waiter comes over with a Liebfraumilch, the one we knew over here (this was 1975).

I asked the waiter why it is called Hock. He said he didn't know; he knew only that it "really isn't veddy good, sir."

My husband is from the UK and so is his family, so it was their opinion regarding the term claret, that I was sharing. He said it was any light red table wine, and that when he thinks of a claret, he thinks of something that is a "house wine". He likened it to when an American goes out to a mediocre restaurant and you order a "glass of red wine", you most likely get a merlot...usually of fair/poor quality.

Thinking about it further, you husband is correct in the sense that if you just ask for "a glass/bottle of Claret" with no hint that you want to see the wine list you are likely to get served a cheap wine, and in the better restaurants the house red could well be a half-decent Claret. That is exactly where your "luncheon Claret" fits into the picture. (But in most places over here the house red now would more likely be a Chilean Merlot or similar too.) Also if a bottle actually says Claret on the label it is going to be of a quality that varies from poor to pleasantly drinkable. Anything Cru Bourgeois or above is unlikely to call itself Claret.

On the other hand, in conversation it would be quite normal to refer to top Bordeaux as Claret (for those who talk about such things, of course). And if in a restaurant you say something like "What Clarets do you have?", the sommelier will start to push you in the direction of a more expensive Bordeaux.

Disclaimer: all of the above refers to In Britain. Anyway - off to bed now. I'll be back to check up on you tomorrow morning though .

I remember on my first trip to England, at a hotel in London I decided to find out what Hock wine was. Ordered a bottle and the waiter comes over with a Liebfraumilch, the one we knew over here (this was 1975).

I asked the waiter why it is called Hock. He said he didn't know; he knew only that it "really isn't veddy good, sir."

Now, Thomas...for the benefit of those who may not know (which I know you know. And you know that I know you know. ), you should've gone a little further and given the folks here what you know.

And that is, that 'Hock' is a very English bastardization, the English being quite cavalier with taking other language's words and mucking them up almost beyond recognition, taken from one of the more well-known white wines from Germany, that from Hochheimer.

And, famously, you will find it referred to as one of Jack Falstaff's favorite recreational tipples in the Shakespearean canon.

I will, of course, refrain from commenting on the amusing aspect of the English and the EU now vociferously defending the protection of an common English bastardization of a German village name which became slang for a type/source region of wine. Don't want to tangle with the language protectionists, dontcha know.

Do you mean "cannot be used to label any wine made in the EU and sold in the US"? The term Claret is certainly used on Bordeaux bottles over here.

On the main label? Never seen in US, can you give an example- would like to google image it.

To me claret means Bordeaux but unlike Champagne, Chablis, or Burgundy I find it hard to get upset about a New World wine using the term.

As to the meritage question, I do think that it informs somewhat. While styles can vary, it's good to know whether a blend is of the Bordeaux varieties (in whatever proportion), mostly Rhone varieties, or a Zin-dominated blend.

And that is, that 'Hock' is a very English bastardization, the English being quite cavalier with taking other language's words and mucking them up almost beyond recognition, taken from one of the more well-known white wines from Germany, that from Hochheimer.

From what I understand, the term "Hock," Hoke, does indeed refer to the city of Hochheim am Main, but the reference does not indicate a specific wine; rather, it refers to Hochheim as a river port from where German wines, especially Rhine wines, were shipped to England. Interestingly enough, even though Hochheim is on the Main River it is considered part of the Rheingau.