To Cork or Not To Cork?

I put my possibly last comment on this thread over on Friends and Fun because I didn't want every bloke and his brother who googles my name to read it, unless they sign in and thereby announce themselves.

I put my possibly last comment on this thread over on Friends and Fun because I didn't want every bloke and his brother who googles my name to read it, unless they sign in and thereby announce themselves.

Well I read that post and it was a nice effort. But it took a different interpretation than what I got from this thread. I don't think you and your wife are the only people who get information from smelling corks. I think pretty much everyone here gets the same information that you do. The objection was that by smelling the cork you are getting information that is not perfectly correlated with the wine. I.E. you're missing some TCA that is present in the wine but not evident in the cork and (more likely) you are identifying TCA that is present in the cork but not in the wine.

You did mention that you find it more difficult to identify TCA in wine (as opposed to the cork) because of the other smells going on (alcohol, fruit) so perhaps this is the best strategy for you because of that. Which is fine. But most people here preferred the more direct method of assessing the wine.

I put my possibly last comment on this thread over on Friends and Fun because I didn't want every bloke and his brother who googles my name to read it, unless they sign in and thereby announce themselves.

Well I read that post and it was a nice effort. But it took a different interpretation than what I got from this thread. I don't think you and your wife are the only people who get information from smelling corks. I think pretty much everyone here gets the same information that you do. The objection was that by smelling the cork you are getting information that is not perfectly correlated with the wine. I.E. you're missing some TCA that is present in the wine but not evident in the cork and (more likely) you are identifying TCA that is present in the cork but not in the wine.

You did mention that you find it more difficult to identify TCA in wine (as opposed to the cork) because of the other smells going on (alcohol, fruit) so perhaps this is the best strategy for you because of that. Which is fine. But most people here preferred the more direct method of assessing the wine.

I don't think they get the same information as I do by what they said. Did you read Neil's comments? David agreed with them, too. Don't forget to add Jenise with the other two people who get it. At least three people in the world, not just two. I am going to try to ask Parker somehow, too. I will bet that he would never make a mistake from smelling TCA on a cork.

I get the TCA in the wine just as well; it is just more fun to get the early edition. I was commenting that a cork could be a better predictor because of the competing volitiles that get in the way a little. But a corked wine is very easy for me to determine on the cork or in the glass. And my point in part was that if you had the requisite brain wiring, the cork will be totally predictive. Jenise said she never made a mistake. My wife and I haven't either, to my memory. Dale said he makes mistakes; or more accurately, I guess he doesn't make mistakes because he doesn't try because the cork wouldn't provide reliable information, he said.

I need to add that my outcome measurement for both the reality of TCA on the cork and the corresponding reality in the wine is subjective and dependent on my, or a person's, ability to detect TCA. The alignment, or accurate reading, is when a person first detects it on the cork and then also finds it in the bottle, or doesn’t find it on the cork and also doesn’t find it in the bottle. I am defining a mistake as detecting TCA on the cork and then not finding it in the wine, or not detecting it on the cork and then finding it in the wine.

And I also disagree that others are finding the same information as I, Lynn and Jenise because some corks are registering in the pleasure centers of our brains, whereas a lot of the naysayers said they don't get anything pleasurable or any utility whatsoever out of sniffing a cork. I count pleasure as utility, especially when I am talking wine.

[David M. Bueker]

I don't think they get the same information as I do by what they said. Did you read Neil's comments? David agreed with them, too. Don't forget to add Jenise with the other two people who get it. At least three people in the world, not just two. I am going to try to ask Parker somehow, too. I will bet that he would never make a mistake from smelling TCA on a cork.

I get the TCA in the wine just as well; it is just more fun to get the early edition. I was commenting that a cork could be a better predictor because of the competing volitiles that get in the way a little. But a corked wine is very easy for me to determine on the cork or in the glass. And my point in part was that if you had the requisite brain wiring, the cork will be totally predictive. Jenise said she never made a mistake. My wife and I haven't either, to my memory. Dale said he makes mistakes; or more accurately, I guess he doesn't make mistakes because he doesn't try because the cork wouldn't provide reliable information, he said.

I've seen Parker make a mistake on TCA - in person, so that goes out the window.

Perhaps you are ultra-sensitive to TCA. That is indeed possible. It's actually an unfortunate curse. Up until my accident I was very sensitive to TCA, and it meant that a whole lot of wines were not enjoyable for me. The cork can provide information, but it is not definitive in my opinion.

[James Roscoe]

So much for Covert's promises!

So much for Covert's promises!

I have always maintained: Never trust a prankster. That trumps any promise.

I don't think they get the same information as I do by what they said. Did you read Neil's comments? David agreed with them, too. Don't forget to add Jenise with the other two people who get it. At least three people in the world, not just two. I am going to try to ask Parker somehow, too. I will bet that he would never make a mistake from smelling TCA on a cork.

I get the TCA in the wine just as well; it is just more fun to get the early edition. I was commenting that a cork could be a better predictor because of the competing volitiles that get in the way a little. But a corked wine is very easy for me to determine on the cork or in the glass. And my point in part was that if you had the requisite brain wiring, the cork will be totally predictive. Jenise said she never made a mistake. My wife and I haven't either, to my memory. Dale said he makes mistakes; or more accurately, I guess he doesn't make mistakes because he doesn't try because the cork wouldn't provide reliable information, he said.

I've seen Parker make a mistake on TCA - in person, so that goes out the window.

Perhaps you are ultra-sensitive to TCA. That is indeed possible. It's actually an unfortunate curse. Up until my accident I was very sensitive to TCA, and it meant that a whole lot of wines were not enjoyable for me. The cork can provide information, but it is not definitive in my opinion.

I remember now that you mentioned your accident. I had temporarily forgotten, but I won't in the future.

Parker always seems to let me down.

I edited in a couple of disclaimers in my last post above.

I don't know if I am ultra sensitive or not, or if I am just more experienced than people I watch around me tasting wine and sometimes missing obvious-to-me TCA. I think I am, though, because I am very focused on what I am drinking and love nuance so. TCA under the threashold of others I sometimes drink wine with really kills the enjoyment for me even before I can actually taste TCA per se in the wine by its dampening and dulling the wine in a very characteristic way. And the way a wine develops in the glass over time is indicative, as it gets duller and nastier than it was upon opening. I have noticed it on the cork and then had the wine go from "I think it is corked," to "it is definitely corked."

Wow, when I first posted this, I didn't have the wildest dream that it would turn into much more in depth technical discussions.
Again, my intention was aimed more at the general consumer and also to explain some of the differences. But, I do admit I have learned alot by reading many of these posts.

[James Roscoe]

So much for Covert's promises!

I have always maintained: Never trust a prankster. That trumps any promise.

Very enlightening!

Btw, just a general comment to all: in a restaurant situation I love getting the cork. Whether or not it's neccessary (I wouldn't send a bottle back until I'd also tasted the wine), it's a ritual I appreciate and enjoy. Especially if it's a very old, saturated cork--love, just love, that aroma.

Covert, I'm not sure Jenise is in your camp, if I interpret her statement correctly. What I read is that she loves the aroma of a very old, saturated cork but not that it necessarily transfers information about the condition or flavor of the wine about to be drunk. We all have smells that take us somewhere or are dear to us.

[Jenise]

Btw, just a general comment to all: in a restaurant situation I love getting the cork. Whether or not it's neccessary (I wouldn't send a bottle back until I'd also tasted the wine), it's a ritual I appreciate and enjoy. Especially if it's a very old, saturated cork--love, just love, that aroma.

Covert, I'm not sure Jenise is in your camp, if I interpret her statement correctly. What I read is that she loves the aroma of a very old, saturated cork but not that it necessarily transfers information about the condition or flavor of the wine about to be drunk. We all have smells that take us somewhere or are dear to us.

Let me clarify then. What I said was that I have indeed detected TCA on corks before also finding it in the wine. Then separately, in mild defense of corks or at least the ritual of cork removal, I just mentioned how much I enjoy smelling the cork on older bottles. Thassall!

Covert, Hi…

You may indeed have removed yourself far from the madding crowd* and that can be a noble act indeed but leaving individuality aside for the moment, a great deal of current research indicates that the probability of identifying whether a wine is or is not corked entirely from smelling the cork is nil. That is to say – one's nose will show as many false positives as false negatives and whatever decision is made merely by smelling a cork is entirely random and has no basis in reality.

More than that…as to actually measuring TCA, various research studies using a combination of gas chromatography and mass spectrometry showing TCA levels of between 0.67 ppt (lower than humans can detect) and 1 ppt (the lowest level at which TCA can be detected by humans) there seems to be a mere 0.01 correlation between a cork showing signs of TCA infection and the wine itself. In other words, that a cork shows all of the signs of TCA infection is a poor indicator that the wine itself will have been affected.

I will not try to change your habits. Those are indeed your prerogative. I will, however, try to change your mind.

Best
Rogov


*Borrowing from Thomas Gray's poem, Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard:

"Far from the madding crowd's ignoble strife,
Their sober wishes never learn'd to stray;
Along the cool sequester'd vale of life
They kept the noiseless tenor of their way"

[James Roscoe]

Covert, Hi…
I will not try to change your habits. Those are indeed your prerogative. I will, however, try to change your mind.

Best
Rogov


*Borrowing from Thomas Gray's poem, Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard:

"Far from the madding crowd's ignoble strife,
Their sober wishes never learn'd to stray;
Along the cool sequester'd vale of life
They kept the noiseless tenor of their way"

This could be fun. You are assuming Covert has a mind to change.

James, Hi...

Not quite fair perhaps. Whatever one might think of Covert's opinions, it is clear that indeed he is a thinking person. The major difference between Covert and many of us (myself included perhaps) is that while we are busy looking for what we consider the right answers he is more in search of the right questions.

Best
Rogov

Btw, just a general comment to all: in a restaurant situation I love getting the cork. Whether or not it's neccessary (I wouldn't send a bottle back until I'd also tasted the wine), it's a ritual I appreciate and enjoy. Especially if it's a very old, saturated cork--love, just love, that aroma.

Covert, I'm not sure Jenise is in your camp, if I interpret her statement correctly. What I read is that she loves the aroma of a very old, saturated cork but not that it necessarily transfers information about the condition or flavor of the wine about to be drunk. We all have smells that take us somewhere or are dear to us.

Am I detecting from a sniff of your note a bit of cognitive dissonance?

You dine with chickens?

You didn't think by "Chicks" I meant women did you, Rogov? Poultry is a much cheaper date, and easier to impress.

Let's make that "Chiks".

Sam, Hi....

All in the nature of good fun of course but with all due respect, I prefer to eat chickens rather than take them to fine restaurants to dine.

Best
Rogov

[David M. Bueker]

Sam, Hi....

All in the nature of good fun of course but with all due respect, I prefer to eat chickens rather than take them to fine restaurants to dine.

Best
Rogov

You don't go to places that are BYOC?

As a Hoosier, I'm sure Sam is well acquainted with "dating" livestock.

You don't go to places that are BYOC?

Nope. But I did bring a bottle of wine to a restaurant some years ago and the owner inquired as to "Well, why didn't you bring your own bread and butter".

I recall the meal well. Indeed, would have done far better had I brought my own bread and butter.

Best
Rogov

James, Hi...

Not quite fair perhaps. Whatever one might think of Covert's opinions, it is clear that indeed he is a thinking person. The major difference between Covert and many of us (myself included perhaps) is that while we are busy looking for what we consider the right answers he is more in search of the right questions.

Best
Rogov

Thanks you, Rogov, that was a considerate thing to say.

I know I owe you a note for your other comments, but I am studying my French for class. I do my thinking and bloviating in the wee hours.

Best,

Covert

Am I detecting from a sniff of your note a bit of cognitive dissonance?

Maybe a touch . Many smells provoke an emotional response from me to past events/memories and thoughts, only, as I grow older, I don't conclude that the experience will be exactly the same.

Drew

You don't go to places that are BYOC?

Nope. But I did bring a bottle of wine to a restaurant some years ago and the owner inquired as to "Well, why didn't you bring your own bread and butter".

I recall the meal well. Indeed, would have done far better had I brought my own bread and butter.

Best
Rogov

Rogov, I take it you have never darkened his door again?

[quote="Neil Courtney]
... I take it you have never darkened his door again?
[/quote]


Neil, Hi...

Actually, I did. In all my years as a restaurant critic I had a policy of never writing a killer review after a single visit so, despite rude service, mediocre food and high prices, I did indeed return.

Best
Rogov