Do you hate Bordeaux?

Unlike Frederik, I am optimistic that this will all correct itself in time. However, the Bordeaux industry needs to put its house in order. Average quality has to improve enormously. Marketing also needs great improvement in traditional markets like the UK and Benelux as well as visibly in the USA

First I want to pay my respect to Alex Rs arguing. I think what he says is very important and worth listening very careful to. Also, I hope he and not me, will be right about the future.

Like Tim I see a lot of things can improve but perhaps I see a dual problem here.

1) The ripeness, sun and warmth of Bordeaux mean it can not compete with super aromatic New world Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon. The Bordeaux wine can never be new world wines or compete with them.

2) In order to be successful most expert seems to mean that they should copy the new world.

It is my conviction that if Bordeaux is going to be successful outside the top estates like Grand Cru Classe etc it must sell by terroir, it must be Bordeaux not like a Chilean or Australian wine.

It is my idea that the Chateaux that are struggling now are capt in this duality. They haven't been able to make successful what they did, so now they turn to make more concentrated aromatic wines inspired by the new world and hope it will work out. Which in my view it doesn't.

As I have worked with retail and buying French wines I can testify that the good stuff has no problem selling whatever the appellation. The path to success I believe must be to make better wines that are Bordeaux wines and market them in group. I don't think it is necessary with bigger brand etc. Only the U.K market is brand focused. The rest of Europe seeks good wines not good brands. In USA I see both trends, both branding and more content focused.

My recipe for success is: Better wines with Bordeaux typicality and market it successful. I have meet the industry in Bordeaux. I think to do this, they must first change themselves, that, I believe, is one of the biggest obstacle in the future of Bordeaux.

Best
Fredrik Svensson, Luxembourg

Aesthetics is a subset of metaphysics; thus questions about Bordeaux quality are unanswerable.

Questions about Bordeaux “qualities” are another matter. At some point, if it hasn’t been done already, chromatographs will pick up selective peaks in Bordeaux that never exist in Cal Cabs. Some palates have sensation receptors for these selective peaks and the perceptual networks to perceive specific positive value.

Most people do not like the elements of Bordeaux which make them unique. While I might refer to them as majestic complexity and gateways to the soul, most people I know would call the qualities collectively ‘barnyard’, if they were educated enough to be familiar with the term. That’s just how it is. To say that young people hate Bordeaux for some social reason is giving them way too much credit.

I very much agree with Asimov that you can’t erase Bordeaux qualities no matter how you treat them. You can’t totally take the class out of a classy lady, even if she could be forced to ride around California with Britney Spears.

Last night my wife and I enjoyed a bottle of 2005 Chateau La Gorce, a $14 Cru Bourgeois from Medoc. It was berry ripe and lavished with new oak, but all Bordeaux, and wonderful – almost magnificent. That’s not a fact, just an opinion of someone lucky enough to be born with Bordeaux-specific brain receptors. Let the others drink Cal Cab – or whatever. So what?

Covert-I think you really sum it up. Bordeaux DOES have some unique attirbutes you just don't get in California Cabs (with a few exceptions. I would argue that Stag's Leap Wine Cellars Cask 23, Fay, and SLV bottlings can have some of these attirbutes-but at prices equal to or even above the classed growth Bordeaux). I don't think Bordeaux is alone in this, I tried my very first "biodynamic" Poulsard the other week, and boy is it unique and funky (not to mention the 20-year old Languedoc cab)

There is no moral failing involved in preferring a sweeter, more fruit forward wine.

I might wonder if some people who become obsessed with wine, like me, in fact have more of these taste sensors/preferrencesand overall tend to be interested in these "other" flavors? Whereas the casual drinkers or the drink-to-impress people just go for the fruit? But, again, that's an exageration, too-other wine hobbyists are fascinated by the different expressions of fruity, rich, high octane California and Australian wines!

There is no moral failing involved in preferring a sweeter, more fruit forward wine.

I might wonder if some people who become obsessed with wine, like me, in fact have more of these taste sensors/preferrencesand overall tend to be interested in these "other" flavors?

Brian, your "smilie" after the first remark above says it all.

I think we are indeed born with the receptors and network to appreciate Bordeaux, and the other wines you mention that have interest (funk).

When I was young and sure I was the best at almost everything, I had not experienced fine Bordeaux wine. Nevertheless, I bragged to my wife that I could identify good wine from bad, as easily as fine art from schlock. So, one day, Lynn went to a wine store and bought an expensive bottle of Bordeaux. If the truth be told, she was trying to bust my hump in front of dinner guests for my braggadocio.

We were drinking plonk, as usual, and Lynn poured the mystery wine into my glass surreptitiously. I took one sip and cried something like, “Jesus! this is the best wine I ever tasted!” whereupon, Lynn admitted, “So you do know good wine.”

That was the turning point. No need to develop my palate. Turned out that Lynn had the identical initial reaction to the wine and our favorite pastime and religion was born.

Hi Frederick,

You have put you finger on a very important point, one which, in fact, goes far beyond the topic at hand: resistance to change.

There is a dogged conservatism about the French that drives people crazy, including lots of other Frenchmen!

Reflecting this, there *is* this attitude in Bordeaux that:
- this is our wine, this is our terroir, this is our way of doing things, and if the (expletive deleted) Americans, Japanese, what have you don't want our wines, well they can go... whistle. The thought of consumer panels, and consequently adpating winemaking styles, is as foreign as ritual ceremonies by Bushmen....
- one can seek shelter under the umbrella of the "locomotives" such as Pétrus, Yquem, etc. Sadly, this is just wishful thinking, and that line of thinking obviously goes only so far...
- New World wines, particularly Australian, are the vinous answer to Coca Cola. People will soon tire of them and inevitably switch to Bordeaux when they become mature drinkers...
- The government will bail out winegrowers if the situation becomes truly desperate. This well-known facet of French politics has indeed led to billions of euros of aid. Should the Eurocrats cry foul, well, they can be outmaneuvered, can't they?

However, there is *also* a very long tradition of innovation and dynamism due to the good old profit motive in Bordeaux.

Much cutting-edge research in viticulture and winemaking comes out of Bordeaux, and the négociants travel the entire world. *They* are well aware of what the competition is like out there.
It's really ironic: many small producers blame poor sales of Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur on the négoce, accusing them of not knowing how to sell their wines as well as ripping them off.
The négociants' point of view is that the producers don't make the kind of wine consumers want, nor can they command the kind of prices they expect because of quality problems.

At the heart of this is the Bordeaux image, and the word "château", a bordelais invention.
People who want Bordeaux - at whatever level - want "a château", but a château, even a good one, produces only so much wine.
This is the dilemma Tim mentioned earlier. The need for brands, but the paradox of branded Bordeaux.

Slowly, but surely, there is a concentration of ownership in the Bordeaux vineyards.
And many vines have been uprooted in the past several years.

However, extreme care must be taken. Look at Champagne: they are now seeking to enlarge their appellation significantly. Yes, I agree, the two regions are quite different.
But who can predict the future with any degree of certainty?

Best regards,
Alex R.

Nice of you to redefine a wine region that predates you by several hundred years. When can we expect your revised and updated Oxford Companion to Wine?

Entre-deux-Mers is bang in the middle of the Bordeaux area; not the most prestigious appellation, though more so than Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur, but indisputably Bordeaux.

Look, if you guys can't come up with any better examples of "value" in "Bordeaux" than EDM, then quod erat demonstrandum.

Game, set, and match.

People like you are the main reason I stay out of the wine sections of Robin's bailiwick on the web here - most areas of which, I must say, I enjoy immensely.

What nobody has mentioned is the fact that you are a dick. They've been all around the edges of it, but nobody has wanted to touch it.

I'll just fade back into my food and weird areas now.

What is it with you people and the ad hominem today?

Look, it should be easy for you: Point me to all that great Bordeaux in the $10-$15 price range.

Where are the Jim Cowan or Chris Coad notes about it?

Where are the Kermit Lynches, Bobby Kachers and Joe Dressners who are importing it?

How come I've been in this infernal hobby for about a decade now and I've never heard of it?

Again: Prove me wrong.

Somewhere around 2nd or 3rd growth classification levels, there is a MASSIVE dropoff in quality of Bordeaux wines, and you get plonk selling here for $20, $30, or $40 which doesn't deserve to be sold for $14.99.

And no, a fourth or fifth growth, with 92 pts from RMP, selling for $50 to $75, or more, is not any sort of a QPR value [and that's assuming that you prefer the same style as RMP in the first place].

Look, if an outfit like Columbia Crest can get competently made wines to us, under something like their "Grand Estates" label, at prices around $10, and in quantities in the hundreds of thousands of cases [or maybe even millions of cases], then why can't Bordeaux do the same thing? [Again, you might not like the Columbia Crest style - and you are free to insert some other outfit making wines in a different style - but CC does prove that competent wine can be made in the sorts of industrial quantities - tens to hundreds of thousands of cases - which seem to dominate the Bordeaux scene.]

Why, instead, are we constantly getting these stories in the press wherein the "lesser" Bordelais are whining and bitching and moaning about how they can't compete with Spain, Australia, and Argentina?

You've set a $10-$15 strawman that is hard to knock down

Where is the $14.99 wine from Bordeaux to compete with Clos de la Roillette?

Taking the further step of exploring formerly despised appellations like, say, Entre-deux-Mers or Côtes de Bourg can prove just too much, especially as there is a lot of dross to sift through before finding the treasure.

Again, name the treasures.

Show me where a Jim Cowan or a Chris Coad has reviewed them.

Show me where I can find them on a store shelf somewhere.

Personally, I know of no evidence that they exist.

Which is not to say that they don't exist, it's just that I don't know of any evidence that they do exist.

A great and entertaining discussion gentle people. (I wonder if anyone has sent a link to Asimov?) Most of this is completely over my head - I readily admit to being one of those who often enjoy an Australian Shiraz, and even sometimes a select CA Merlot, and I'm probably the wealthier for my plebian tastes. But I'm here to learn...I have in my cellar 2 Bordeaux: 2001 Ch. Tour de Segur from Lussac-St.Emillion ($18); and 2003 Ch. Micalet haut-Medoc ($23). Anyone know these wines? Are they ready to drink? Would either be a good place to start in order to enter this conversation?

Look, for the record, I'll throw out a few possibilities here:

1) Maybe Bordeaux underperforms in the value segment because of the name on the label, "Bordeaux". With a name like that, you can coast on your laurels, confident in the assumption that you can fool some of the people all of the time.

2) Maybe Bordeaux underperforms in the value segment because there just isn't all that much quality dirt in the region - maybe the 1855ers did a pretty competent job of classifying the terroirs, and, after a point, there's a dramatic fall-off in the quality of the soil. [I.e. maybe Bordeaux is OVERPLANTED.]

3) Maybe Bordeaux doesn't underperform in the value segment - maybe the value is there, but, by the time all thieves in the American 3-tier system take their cut of the action, a wine which ought to sell for $14.99 is instead selling for $39.99.

4) Maybe Bordeaux is priced correctly, and, in time, all of that Spanish/Australian/Argentinian/Chilean/Loire-ian/Fleurie-ian/Italian wine will rise in price to equal Bordeaux.

Again, name the treasures.
Show me where a Jim Cowan or a Chris Coad has reviewed them.
Show me where I can find them on a store shelf somewhere.
Personally, I know of no evidence that they exist.
Which is not to say that they don't exist, it's just that I don't know of any evidence that they do exist.

In last couple of years I've quite liked under-$15 wines like Cap de Faugeres, La Grolet "Tete de Cuvee", Lilian Ladouys, Fiefs de Lagrange, and Caronne Ste Gemme. Varying styles, and I didn't like all wines in all vintages. Of course my liking them just means I liked, not that anyone else would. But that's true of all wines.

It's getting harder to find under $15 Bdx (I paid $9 for the tasty '04 Picque Caillou, but that was a special situation, but saw it for $14 several times), prices are going up, but that's true of most wines (especially European) - I no longer find Coudert under $15 either.

I think Jim Cowan is a gentleman and a fine taster, I find Coad funny in person and in print, and another whose notes I really respect. But I have never thought their stamp of approval was a guarantee that I would like something, nor that somehow a wine was not worthy if they hadn't posted notes. I think Jim's on record as not being a real fan of Cab/Merlot to start with, so don't quite get why I'd want him to decide what Bordeaux I'd try.

Never had a cheap Bordeaux you liked? Weren't you part of Chrish's hype machine for the shhhhh! 3rd wine of LLC Terre de Lion? I remember laughing at the predictability.

In last couple of years I've quite liked under-$15 wines like Cap de Faugeres, La Grolet "Tete de Cuvee", Lilian Ladouys, Fiefs de Lagrange, and Caronne Ste Gemme.

These are sub-15dollar wines? Lillian Ladouys I have liked, but when it was available here it was 30€; Fiefs de Lagrange is 28€; Picque Caillou was 20€. I liked Picque Caillou even that price, though.

-O

You've set a $10-$15 strawman that is hard to knock down

Where is the $14.99 wine from Bordeaux to compete with Clos de la Roillette?

Arguably the reverse problem exists over here for US wines, with transport costs making great value wines harder to come by. In the end though if a particular wine style or region lights your fire, you'll find a way. It may not be the most sought after wine, and it may be an occasional treat, but most wine enthusiasts will find a way.

and to caveat Fredrik's comment - a sizeable (by volume) section of the UK market is brand focussed, however a large number of the independant wine merchants offer a completely different, questing approach to wine sourcing - take a look at Raeburns list for (a top) example of the genre. There are some great wines there, but also plenty of excellent 'eclectic' wines to challenge the norm. Apart from Waitrose, the national supermarket chains are very much in in the branded, wine commodity territory Fredrik mentions. Even Waitrose has a lot of this tat as well.

In last couple of years I've quite liked under-$15 wines like Cap de Faugeres, La Grolet "Tete de Cuvee", Lilian Ladouys, Fiefs de Lagrange, and Caronne Ste Gemme.

These are sub-15dollar wines? Lillian Ladouys I have liked, but when it was available here it was 30€; Fiefs de Lagrange is 28€; Picque Caillou was 20€. I liked Picque Caillou even that price, though.

OK, I just looked, I was wrong- I paid $15.97 at PJs for the '03 Lilian-Ladouys (I'm not generally an '03 fan, but St Estephe seems to have done well, and the L-Ladouys wasn't overripe- I think because its a property that seems to struggle with underripeness in cool vintages).

I paid $12 for '01 Fiefs, $14 for '02 La Grolet (Chambers), $12 for '01 Cap de Faugeres (Zachys), $13 for '05 Caronne Ste Gemme (Post). Zachys prices have ranged from $14 to $25 for the '04 Picque Caillou, I thought it good deal at $16 or so, then they had a "flood sale" (a warehouse got flooded, labels ruined, but it was cold water- winter in NY) for about $100 a case. I ordered a case, when I went to pick up, they had taken more orders than they had flooded cases, so gave me a pristine case at that price. Now that was a deal.

Nathan,

I'm sorry your local stores have such a lousy selection.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[David M. Bueker]

Nathan,

The fact that you can't find it doesn't mean it's not there.

And actually your attitude about all of this does not make the idea of helping you particularly appealing.

I guess it's important to avoid this debate getting too uptight and personal. I'm not too keen on hearing someone called a dick.

Nathan hasn't found value in Bdx. Maybe ... it's not to his taste, or at least he appreciates other regions better?

I'd advise Nathan to stick with wines from elsewhere - Bordeaux doesn't have to satisfy everyone's tastes or VFM expectations, in just the same way Barolo or Burgundy don't have to. It seems obvious that, on what Nathan has tasted and what he's enjoyed, Bdx isn't a happy hunting ground. Not worth beating a drum about it as the drum is drowning out much that he says that I'd agree with (Bordeaux is not without problems) - but for me the baby doesn't have to get thrown out with the bathwater. As I note David speculated, it appears Nathan is putting forward an argument rather than being open to genuine suggestions. If so then I don't see anyone winning him over, nor any benefit in that line of argument continuing.

I personally find there's value in Bordeaux - a canny buyer at auction can find some real bargains (ditto I suspect via en primeur, but not something I do). At retail in Uk there can still be successes, but it's a harder but far from impossible task.

Nathan: to change the record a little, are their any Bordeaux wines that have given you great pleasure & value in the past - has it not always been this way?

I think Jim Cowan is a gentleman and a fine taster, I find Coad funny in person and in print, and another whose notes I really respect. But I have never thought their stamp of approval was a guarantee that I would like something, nor that somehow a wine was not worthy if they hadn't posted notes.

Florida Jim??? - Rumor is he puts ice cubes in his rose. He is from the South so we can probably forgive him.

Coad??? - The only reason people like him is his shirts and good looking wife. Without that nobody would care.

Just kidding and enjoy both of their TNs but on a more serious note I am not a fan of inexpensive Bordeaux. I tend to buy good Bordeaux (at least IMO), hold it for many years and then really get my toes curled. I am not saying a $15 Bordeaux is not a pleasant drink but would probably rather have a Beaujolais or any number of interesting wines from Spain or Italy. Now support for OZ Shiraz is another thing and just plain wrong. Don't let your kids grow up and drink Shiraz.

Walt

[Jenise]

In last couple of years I've quite liked under-$15 wines like Cap de Faugeres, La Grolet "Tete de Cuvee", Lilian Ladouys, Fiefs de Lagrange, and Caronne Ste Gemme.

These are sub-15dollar wines? Lillian Ladouys I have liked, but when it was available here it was 30€; Fiefs de Lagrange is 28€; Picque Caillou was 20€. I liked Picque Caillou even that price, though.

-O

Otto, good to know you and Dale both liked the 04 PC. I bought half a dozen bottles a few months ago, haven't tasted one yet, never had the wine before and at this point I don't even have a clue what made me decide to buy them when I did! That both of you liked it is, I'm sure, a better recco than whatever I acted upon at the time.

Just kidding and enjoy both of their TNs but on a more serious note I am not a fan of inexpensive Bordeaux.

Walt,

I wish I could afford the more expensive stuff, but I do find a lot of quality in the lower end Bordeaux. Some vintages more than others. I have not yet found a bad 2000 Bordeaux at any price, and I've sample them all the way down to about $18. I am up to seventeen different chateaux to date.

Sadly, Sam, the 2000 Clerc Millon was "mediocre" even after decanting. I am not sensitive to/familiar with cork taint, but I wonder if the bottle tonight fell victim to the dreaded TCA. Just "flat" The disappointment o0f the night.

I'm familiar with the term "barnyard, " but to me almost every single wine lover/geek/fan that uses the term is using it to describe brett.

Dale, we have had almost this exact same interchange before. I am speaking about people in the sticks - regular people - who do not have your, or your friends', level of sophistication, which you probably pick up from New York City. These people I am speaking of don't like any flavor that is not like cherry pop, and when they learn the term 'barnyard', usually from me referring to the aspects you refer to, they use the term to describe any flavor that does not resemble cherry pop. You might wonder why I would associate with such people: I work with them; I wouldn't socialize with them otherwise.

Look, for the record, I'll throw out a few possibilities here:

You've raised some interesting points here, Nathan.

1) Maybe Bordeaux underperforms in the value segment because of the name on the label, "Bordeaux". With a name like that, you can coast on your laurels, confident in the assumption that you can fool some of the people all of the time.

This was very true until recently. There may still be some Bordeaux producers who believe it and there are some markets, e.g. here in Belgium amongst older consumers, where the name Bordeaux retains a certain credibility. (We have friends who look askance at anything but Bordeaux and burgundy on the table.) I believe, however, that the Bordeaux establishment has woken up to the problem.

2) Maybe Bordeaux underperforms in the value segment because there just isn't all that much quality dirt in the region - maybe the 1855ers did a pretty competent job of classifying the terroirs, and, after a point, there's a dramatic fall-off in the quality of the soil. [I.e. maybe Bordeaux is OVERPLANTED.]

Yes, I think that this is partly true. The plots capable of producing "great" quality have mostly been identified for several centuries. That, however, does not mean that some of the outlying areas are not capable of producing very decent quality and good QPR, such as Domaine de Courteillac (Bordeaux Supérieur)and Château Nodoz (Côtes de Bourg), on which I posted last month.

3) Maybe Bordeaux doesn't underperform in the value segment - maybe the value is there, but, by the time all thieves in the American 3-tier system take their cut of the action, a wine which ought to sell for $14.99 is instead selling for $39.99.

This is probably partly true, although some of the prices which people here quote in US$ are beginning to look quite attractive to me when converted into €. In the segment of € 7-15, I think that there is a lot of value available over here but it needs a good importer to pick them. (45% of the merchants here have the advantage of both proximity and of sharing a common language with French growers.) Herein, it appears to me that there may be a problem in the USA, not helped by the plethora of estates and poor marketing by the Bordeaux industry. I agree with Ian that a lot of independent wine merchants in the UK do a great job in this respect but not the supermarkets where 95% of the population buy their wine.

4) Maybe Bordeaux is priced correctly, and, in time, all of that Spanish/Australian/Argentinian/Chilean/Loire-ian/Fleurie-ian/Italian wine will rise in price to equal Bordeaux.

Looked at from here, it is only the 1er crus, super-seconds and right bank equivalents which are overpriced. I think that, for example, Chateau Pontet-Canet 2004 at € 39 holds its own with the competition from the other areas which you mention, as do Château Poujeaux at about €20 and Domaine de Couteillac at €10.
I agree that best Loire and Beaujolais provide exceptional value. However, I don't find, by and large, that Italy and Spain offer superior value for money whilst I find most Australian wines over-confected and Chilean wines sound but dull. I do, however, like the Argentinian Malbec which I have been opening this month but I do not think it competes directly in the same gastronomic segment as Bordeaux.

Where is the $14.99 wine from Bordeaux to compete with Clos de la Roillette?

Chateau La Gorce, Moulin D'Issan, and Tour de Giet are three wonderful Bordeaux (not from EDM) that sell for under $15, if you purchase wine by the case. There are plenty more. I suppose you could argue that I have no taste, but I think you would be incorrect. The fall of US dollar to finance our eradication of potential Musar makers has made me so angry that I have sought out bargains from Bordeaux for the first time in my life. Luckily I have 800 or so "good" bottles left, purchased prior to the dollar tanking. But until we can turn things around geopolitically, I will continue to purchase lots of what I call "$14 bottles" from Bordeaux. Serendipitously, I have come to appreciate them and find many almost as lovely as wines I used to pay $35 to $50 for.

I had a simple dinner here in Bordeaux with several Bordeaux wine professionals. We drank 5 bottles and none was Bordeaux, although all were French, mostly Languedoc and a stellar Jurançon at the end of the meal. Their views on the subject of this thread echoed many of those that have been expressed here with regard to beginning your career with a Bordeaux epiphany and then moving on to other tasting adventures but always coming back to Bordeaux.

I think that these Bordeaux professionals are suffering from a commercially dangerous delusion if they believe the "always coming back to Bordeaux". I never completely abandoned Bordeaux but now only drink it two or three times a month. However, I know quite a few people who have given up completely on Bordeaux, including some ITB. An example of this is Liz and Mike Berry, who used to run the superb La Vigneronne wine merchants in Kensington and now run Grand Cru Wines, a mail order business for the UK market; at la Vigneronne, they proposed very little Bordeaux to their customers but offered a wide and excellent range from other French regions. This inevitably influenced their very loyal customers away from Bordeaux. Here in Belgium there are also several excellent merchants who offer very little Bordeaux.