Varietal

[Robin Garr]

Adjective regarding which: wine, grape, table, DeLong???

You're not reading what I said literally, Thomas.

Diagram the simple phrase "varietal table." "Varietal" here is clearly an adjective modifying the noun "table." There can be no dispute about this. The rest is commentary.

This tread has gone in so many directions that me ole head is spinning. Let me get this straight, some of you think that I should call Stags Leap Cabernet Sauvignon a variety wine. Is this correct? If so, I'm going to have my brain drained.

Cheers, Carl

Good grief, Carl, where did you get that from? or, from where did you get that?

It is a varietal wine (adjective) because it refers to the grape variety (noun) Cabernet Sauvignon, even if it's only 75%

Adjective regarding which: wine, grape, table, DeLong???

You're not reading what I said literally, Thomas.

Diagram the simple phrase "varietal table." "Varietal" here is clearly an adjective modifying the noun "table." There can be no dispute about this. The rest is commentary.

True, but that construction further confuses the heading's meaning, especially since the word "varietal" can apply to a description of grape variety characteristics or wine characteristics, and who knows, maybe it describes table characteristics too .

Inserting the word "characteristics," in my view, removes confusion, and that is all that concerns me. Being grammatically right doesn't necessarily mean a sentence (or heading) is spot-on informative.

Diagram the simple phrase "varietal table." "Varietal" here is clearly an adjective modifying the noun "table." There can be no dispute about this.

I dispute this. Varietal here is much more likely a noun--a noun that is modifying another noun. Think computer paper or pencil sharpener. Or reverse it, it is a table of varietals--a rich man is not a man of rich.

To add to the confusion, the table deals both with characteristics of varieties and varietals, or so it appears. It appears to list varieties of grapes and traces their lineage but also gives characteristics of how wines made from those grapes taste or smell, characteristics of varietal wines, not of grape varieties. Spin, spin, spin . . .

It is a varietal wine (adjective) because it refers to the grape variety (noun) Cabernet Sauvignon, even if it's only 75%

Thanks Thomas. This is what I always thought. No brain drain required. But what is all the shouting about?

"Diagram the simple phrase "varietal table." "Varietal" here is clearly an adjective modifying the noun "table." There can be no dispute about this. The rest is commentary."

Robin, I thought diagramming worked for sentences, but not necessarily for titles or other fragments.

Here, the creator of the table has defined "Varietal" as a noun in the table itself; see the small box at bottom right.

My grammar teacher -- how long ago was that?! -- taught that we should re-write titles -- here "Table of Wine Grape Varietals", and then analyze the function of each word or phrase in the re-written title.

I understand "Varietal" here to be the object of the prepositional phrase "[of] Varietal[s]", bracketed info understood for the purposes of compression, and "Varietal[s]" is a noun and object of the phrase. The phrase is an adjectival phrase, modifying the word "Table."

It's been awhile since I did any diagramming, so this analysis may be totally wrong.

I think Bob's right. It should be "Variety Table" for the reasons he lays out. For example, the famous "periodic table of the elements" is an "element table", not an "elemental table".

-Paul W.

"Diagram the simple phrase "varietal table." "Varietal" here is clearly an adjective modifying the noun "table." There can be no dispute about this. The rest is commentary."

Robin, I thought diagramming worked for sentences, but not necessarily for titles or other fragments.

Here, the creator of the table has defined "Varietal" as a noun in the table itself; see the small box at bottom right.

My grammar teacher -- how long ago was that?! -- taught that we should re-write titles -- here "Table of Wine Grape Varietals", and then analyze the function of each word or phrase in the re-written title.

I understand "Varietal" here to be the object of the prepositional phrase "[of] Varietal[s]", bracketed info understood for the purposes of compression, and "Varietal[s]" is a noun and object of the phrase. The phrase is an adjectival phrase, modifying the word "Table."

It's been a while since I did any diagramming, so this analysis may be totally wrong.

If I learned anything from those damned diagramming sessions it was what I call "the sound test." When I read something aloud and it confuses me, I know it isn't written clearly--maybe it's written grammatically correct, maybe not, but it is written with clarity.

In this discussion, it is quite clear that the word varietal confuses, so its use ought be made crystal clear by the user, not to mention that it should remain an adjective, in my ever so humble opinion.

Of course, I also know that titles and headings aren't necessarily there to impart information but more to scream hyperbole, like a good press release.

I think Bob's right. It should be "Variety Table" for the reasons he lays out. For example, the famous "periodic table of the elements" is an "element table", not an "elemental table".

-Paul W.

But that depends on whether they meant the chart to be a table about grape varieties or a table about grape varietal characteristics in wine. As pointed out earlier, the table includes both and is therefore a composite, which is why it makes it all the more important to me that the heading be more specific--or less so...not sure which at this point!

Are we having fun yet?

"Thanks Thomas. This is what I always thought. No brain drain required. But what is all the shouting about?"

The shouting is about whether a grape can properly be called a "varietal", or should be referred to as a "variety", in a paragraph like:

There are dozens of varietals grown in the Rhone Valley in France. 13 of these are approved in Chateauneuf du Pape, with another 8 approved in the Cotes du Rhone appellation. We chose to import the 9 chief varietals of the Southern Rhone for our Paso Robles estate vineyard: Mourvedre, Syrah, Grenache, and Counoise for the reds, and Roussanne, Marsanne, Grenache Blanc, Viognier, and Picpoul for the whites. Tablas Creek Vineyard.

Some folks think "varietal" is wrong grammatically because "varietal" is an adjective, not a noun. Others note that the word "varietal" has been used in the US for over 50 years, and believe that the usage is now acceptable Winespeak.

Or, at least, that's what I understand the shouting is about.

"Thanks Thomas. This is what I always thought. No brain drain required. But what is all the shouting about?"

The shouting is about whether a grape can properly be called a "varietal", or should be referred to as a "variety", in a paragraph like:

There are dozens of varietals grown in the Rhone Valley in France. 13 of these are approved in Chateauneuf du Pape, with another 8 approved in the Cotes du Rhone appellation. We chose to import the 9 chief varietals of the Southern Rhone for our Paso Robles estate vineyard: Mourvedre, Syrah, Grenache, and Counoise for the reds, and Roussanne, Marsanne, Grenache Blanc, Viognier, and Picpoul for the whites. Tablas Creek Vineyard.

Some folks think "varietal" is wrong grammatically because "varietal" is an adjective, not a noun. Others note that the word "varietal" has been used in the US for over 50 years, and believe that the usage is now acceptable Winespeak.

Or, at least, that's what I understand the shouting is about.

Bob,

Stop shouting, will ya!

OK, Thomas. My work is done here.

Or, at least, that's what I understand the shouting is about.

Thanks Bob, and I completely agree with you.

Carl

The shouting is about whether a grape can properly be called a "varietal", or should be referred to as a "variety", in a paragraph like:

There are dozens of varietals grown in the Rhone Valley...

Yes, that's the simple error the wine dictionaries warn about. That's all. (Not to mention the sentence begins with "there," a good cue it hasn't been professionally edited.)

The disquisitions on linguistic minutiae cloud this picture IMO and make my head spin too. The short postings by Carl Eppig et alii have the profundity.

"Vigorous writing is concise."

The shouting is about whether a grape can properly be called a "varietal", or should be referred to as a "variety", in a paragraph like:

There are dozens of varietals grown in the Rhone Valley in France. 13 of these are approved in Chateauneuf du Pape, with another 8 approved in the Cotes du Rhone appellation. We chose to import the 9 chief varietals of the Southern Rhone for our Paso Robles estate vineyard: Mourvedre, Syrah, Grenache, and Counoise for the reds, and Roussanne, Marsanne, Grenache Blanc, Viognier, and Picpoul for the whites. Tablas Creek Vineyard.

There is no question. Proper, traditional English usage says only "variety" is correct here. Maybe the wine industry ghetto-speak malapropism of "varietal" as a noun will eventually become mainstream. One hopes that it and that abomination from the business world, the verb "to liaise", will die horrible deaths.

-Paul W.

Okay, you legion of pin-head dancers, I've waited as long as I can.

While I hesitate, long and hard, with careful thought and deliberation, I have to finally say *gulp*: Gary Barlettano has the right of the matter.

Those of you who confuse language with one or another forms of 'correct usage' are sounding strident and ridiculous.

"Proper, traditional English usage" and "wine industry ghetto-speak malapropism" and other such phrases get to the heart of the matter here (Hi, Paul; and thanks for making this easier for me ).

Those of you who want only to perpetuate the accepted "correct" form of usage you learned in grade school, wanting to fix that eternally as the RIGHT way, the ONLY way, are alike that sad king commanding the waves: language is a living thing, a reflection of society and life, and it will and does change.

What you wish, what you feel, what you think is no more important than that king's command. The language will do what it will do because it reflects society, not your selfish desires to petrify language into one single fixed form. And the change is already well into the process. We already see sufficient usage across a broad enough spectrum that nouns are becoming verbs, verbs are shifting to nouns, and adjectives can be coined from either.

Because (and you might want to write this down so you can recall it later) That's the way language works, guys. Whether you like it or not.

[And, for the record, just so you'll know: I know the difference between variety and varietal, noun and adjective, and yes, I am sensitized to the difference. And yes, I notice when it does not conform to past accepted 'standard usage'. But I somehow manage to accomodate it into my understanding of what is being said (and meant). And I usually don't make a big thing of it, or castigate people for 'misusing' it. Number one, that's their usage, not mine, so who am I to say they are incorrect. And Number two, to do so would be gauche and exceedingly impolite. After all, nobody likes a Language Nanny. And if any of you Anal Retentives wish to go back through this post with your mental red pencil: hey, whatever makes you happy. ]

Scite happeneth.

In various varieties thereof, apparently.

Or should it be varietal scite?

Thank you all for your opinions and advice.

What I love most about this forum is that a simple question like this, can spur a discussion that teaches me so much…and not just about wine! Where else can you get the opinions of [wine] writers, critics, folks ITB, enthusiasts, linguists, and lawyers? Thank you Bob Ross for all the excellent research, especially about the evolution of language. I would have never occured to me that the more a word is used, the less it evolves. Fantastic as usual.

Now, I think we can all assume that varietal can be safely used as an adjective (and more specifically, and adjective describing wine and not grapes...and a wine made from a single grape). But the question becomes whether is can be used properly as a noun. Some of you say yes, others say no. I think that is where my initial confusion lies. My original post cited 3 sources that used the word “varietal”. Of these 3 sources, 2 used the word “varietal” as a noun. The first source was from the “Page-a-Day” wine calendar. The author of this calendar is Karen MacNeil (The calendar also had a quote from Steve Edmunds not too long ago...but I digress). Her definition again, “Variety, Varietal: These two words are often used interchangeably, but they refer to different things. Variety refers to a type of grape. The variety planted in a certain vineyard, for example, may be zinfandel. A varietal is a type of wine. Different varietals (zinfandel, syrah, merlot, and so on) appear on market shelves.” MacNeil obviously uses varietal as a noun…correct? “A varietal is a type of wine”. That is not a definition for an adjective. The second source I sited was from Dictionary.com. If you read all the 4 definitions, it describes the word “varietal” as both a adjective AND noun… “4. –noun a varietal wine named for such a grape (distinguished from generic).” So, I guess my question is, for those who say it cannot be used as a noun, how do you know this? This is why I am so confused about the term.

And for anyone that does not like this term to be "misused", when do you feel that occurs? Is it when the word varietal is used as a noun, when it is used as an adjective to decribe a grape, ie. Which varietal is this wine made from (and btw, I used to say that ALL the time, until someone here corrected me), or both? Again, just trying to gain a better understanding of how more senior oenphiles feel the word should be used...since I am relatively new to wine and don't want to sound like an idiot...LOL!

As far as the evolution of language…ITA with Gary B and Hoke and I think that sometime in the future, my original question will be a non-issue. But for now I will try and use this term as little as possible since it does seem to irritate many when used "improperly".

Covert...hey there! I haven't been to Tim Schafers yet. I really haven't explored my town as much as I would like, since hubby and I only moved here shortly before we had children. I am from NJ, and went to High School here in Morristown, but haven't lived here since then (1991!)

As far a vegetarian...that is definitely tricky. My suggestions would be Sushi, Italian, or Afgani. There is the Sushi Lounge...great food, awesome bar, wonderful atmosphere. Pazzo Pazzo is a wonderful Italian restaurant that also has really good food and a decent wine list. It also has a great atmosphere. There is a really nice Afgani restaurant called Pamir. The food is really delicious, but it is BYOB. There is an Indian restaurant next to it, but I haven't been there, so I can't say if it is good or not. Let me know if any of those sound good and if you want more info about them. My favorite restaurant is called Pierre's Bistro and is French...really fantastic food and awesome wine bar...BUT there isn't much vegetarian...unless your client will eat fish. Someday we might even be able to do an offline here in Morristown, if you are in the area often .

Thanks again everyone for the info. I really appreciate it!

Oops...edited for typos!

"As far as the evolution of language…ITA with Gary B and Hoke and I think that sometime in the future, my original question will be a non-issue. But for now I will try and use this term as little as possible since it does seem to irritate many when used "inproperly"."

Which raises the points that neither Gary nor Hoke address:

When is the change solidified, by whom, and how to handle the confusion in between?

True, language evolves and likely should do so, but another question that I have is: should it evolve out of lack of education or out of expansion of knowledge?

So, I guess my question is, for those who say it cannot be used as a noun, how do you know this?

That's easy. Thor Iverson told us. Many, many times.

And for anyone that does not like this term to be "misused", when do you feel that occurs?

The one that sticks in my craw most of all, the one I hear often, is, "we grow five different varietals on the property."
That is incorrect usage, with all due respect to Hoke, and anyone else who feels that language should be allowed to evolve.

" But for now I will try and use this term as little as possible since it does seem to irritate many when used "improperly"."

Sounds good to me, Maria, as I mentioned earlier. A minefield, creating negative feelings, not only about the word but apparently about the person using it.

Thanks for raising such an interesting question and for your feedback on the various opinions expressed here.

Regards, Bob

Hoke,

Your post is a triumph, telling us all how to behave while deploring the tendency for people to tell other people how to behave.

There is a parallel to this discussion about language in the world of wine: what is wrong with people making cheesy, frooty wines in, say, Cote-Rotie? If that's what people want to drink then everyone should do what they want. That's the way things are going, who are we to judge, et cetera.

The problem is that if we continue in this direction there will be nothing but frooty wines, and we will be reduced to a fifty-word vocabulary*. I know the world is headed in that direction; as should be obvious to you we all know that, but I don't like it and I won't contribute to it.

*We lose words when those words are mis-used; in effect the word varietal is no longer alive, because even the thoughtful reader would have to look twice at it. And this is generally the case, misuse leads to loss. I like having all my words, and all my wines.

*We lose words when those words are mis-used...

I hear you, Oliver, and I feel some of that too.

Another side to language discussions is often "off the radar" of people who approach the matter in right-or-wrong, descriptive-or-prescriptive terms. (I'm thinking about a grammarian friend who uses imagery like "defending" the language -- just like the Académie française.*) I learned this when I worked as an editor, and later tried to show audiences of technical people practical, useful techniques in nonfiction writing for publication. (A quarter-century ago.)

I told them: Don't approach this as a right-or-wrong game. Learn about the tricky words. Learn what passive voice does, its strengths and weaknesses. Learn the subtle messages your word choices send to readers. It's like learning a tool [or an ingredient in cooking!] Then you are in control. You decide how you want to use the words, because you know the choices. You can "break the rules," but it should be conscious.


*"Institution créée en 1635, chargée de définir la langue française"

But if you really think about it in reality there is no such thing as a “single” Cabernet Sauvignon vine. One reference book lists 19 different clones of Cabernet Sauvignon (and surely with the passing of time there will be more) with characteristic differences. Differences between clones are only slight but some can be fairly significant and important. (Varieties are the result of sexual reproduction between two different varieties of the same species; clones are the result of asexual reproduction or vegetative propagation of a single vine). To distinguish between the many different clones nurserymen/women assign them numbers. If the difference however is very significant or important instead of just a number a “name” may be issued. So IMHO the term Cabernet Sauvignon doesn’t represent a “single vine” but a “family of vines”.

Salute