Poll: What is your favorite German wine region?

[David M. Bueker]

And Rahsaan - don't talk about loving the intricacies of wine and then taking the stance that German wine is too complicated. The whiplash isn't good for you.

But the two points concern different people.

We geeks love the intricacies of wine.

Casual wine consumers want things simpler.

At least that's the logic.

And I honestly think it's flawed. Casual consumers want to know what's in the bottle. They will put up with almost anything on the label if they know they are going to get what they expect.

Question for David. For each Prädikat category isn’t there a maximum alcohol content?
Generally (but not always), when comparing German wines within the same Prädikat category, the wine with the “higher” alcohol contents usually means less RS. (Now whether or not I perceive the wine as being “sweet” or “not” that’s a whole different story. There’s “assembling” the wine prior to bottling and “back- sweetening” to consider).

Salute

[David M. Bueker]

Question for David. For each Prädikat category isn’t there a maximum alcohol content?
Generally (but not always), when comparing German wines within the same Prädikat category, the wine with the “higher” alcohol contents usually means less RS. (Now whether or not I perceive the wine as being “sweet” or “not” that’s a whole different story. There’s “assembling” the wine prior to bottling and “back- sweetening” to consider).

Salute

The problem is that the requirements have not kept up with the climate. Also, the "max alcohol" is a wide range, not an absolute, and more about typicity that is never enforced. With grapes ripening to ever greater oeschle levels a kabinett with 9% alcohol can still have 75 g/l (or more) of sugar without addition of sussreserve.

Granted that we can now buy cellar worthy spatlese at kabinett prices, but it's the confounding of the categories that drives the confusion IMO.

outside of a couple of exceptions, there aren't multiple prädikats coming from the same vineyard.

Then I must have only landed on the exceptions. Last month when I was in Germany I was either ordering wine or looking to order wine from Franz Keller, Schloss Neuweier, Laible, Bercher, Sasbacher Cooperative, plus a handful of others that aren't coming to mind right now and everyone had a dizzying array of options.

I beg your pardon. Baden can be a nightmare. The Pfalz would never stand for such shananagans as those. But Baden is a Co-op culture and as such the mindset is 'What the fuck are we going to do with all of these grapes?'

Cheers,
Bill

Question for David. For each Prädikat category isn’t there a maximum alcohol content?
Generally (but not always), when comparing German wines within the same Prädikat category, the wine with the “higher” alcohol contents usually means less RS. (Now whether or not I perceive the wine as being “sweet” or “not” that’s a whole different story. There’s “assembling” the wine prior to bottling and “back- sweetening” to consider).

Salute

The problem is that the requirements have not kept up with the climate. Also, the "max alcohol" is a wide range, not an absolute, and more about typicity that is never enforced. With grapes ripening to ever greater oeschle levels a kabinett with 9% alcohol can still have 75 g/l (or more) of sugar without addition of sussreserve.

Granted that we can now buy cellar worthy spatlese at kabinett prices, but it's the confounding of the categories that drives the confusion IMO.

Germany has no legal upward alcohol limits on Prädikatswein (although Austria does). It isn't normally a problem but I've seen BA in Germany with 17% Alc. It wasn't very pleasant.

Cheers,
Bill

To continue the discussion; the Prädikatswein system is built on lies and misleading consumers. Take Kabinett for example. A lot of consumers have been led to believe that Kabinett is the very first harvest that is made from a vineyard with multiple selections. This is hardly ever the case. In fact, Kabinett is very often the last harvest collected. Kabinett is made from the bunches left on the vine to ripen further after the main harvest of Spätlese and botrytis infected Auslese has been collected. If those bunches destined for Kabinett don't reach the minimum Oechsle, they are labeled Qualitätswein (are maybe or maybe not chaptalized). In this case, another fuder or tank of Spätlese will simply be declassified to Kabinett and customers will complain that their Kabinett tastes like Spätlese because of course it is. What should Kabinett be called if it is harvested later than the late-harvest?

I once spent a couple of hours with Nik Weis (St. Urbans Hof) debating the flaws in the German wine law. One thing we completely agreed on was that the pradikats need not just lower limits, but upper limits as well, so that consumers stand a chance of buying what they expect.

The problem with setting maximum Oechsle limits for the prädikats is that the producers aren't harvesting specifically for Kabinett, they produce it to fill a price-point and it ends up being simply the wine with the lowest Oechsle available that still qualifies. In botrytis rampant years, the negative selection of botrytis infected bunches is even harder to control and you end up getting Kabinett that is Auslese in reality. This is the reason why there is no such thing as 'true' Kabinett. It's become an afterthought and a moving target in the Mosel.

Cheers,
Bill

[David M. Bueker]

To continue the discussion; the Prädikatswein system is built on lies and misleading consumers. Take Kabinett for example. A lot of consumers have been led to believe that Kabinett is the very first harvest that is made from a vineyard with multiple selections.

Hmm...I never believed that.

Thanks for the correction on maximum alcohol levels. I have some charts from the German Wine Institute that suggest otherwise, but perhaps things have changed.

To continue the discussion; the Prädikatswein system is built on lies and misleading consumers. Take Kabinett for example. A lot of consumers have been led to believe that Kabinett is the very first harvest that is made from a vineyard with multiple selections.

Hmm...I never believed that.

Thanks for the correction on maximum alcohol levels. I have some charts from the German Wine Institute that suggest otherwise, but perhaps things have changed.

Perhaps not, but you aren't Average Joe wine consumer either. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that. Oh well. What I am really weary of is that all of these rules might in some way detract from the enjoyment of German wine and not add to it.

Cheers,
Bill

BTW, I think the Rheingau is primed and ready for a come from behind win in this Poll. Don't call it a comeback!

I voted for rheinhessen but it just edged out mosel. My go to winery for Germany is Gunderloch.

It's hard to pick one favorite, but I'll have to go with the Mosel, especially since it now includes the Saar and Ruwer. I probably drink more from the combined Mosel/Saar/Ruwer than any other German region. On the other hand, some of my absolute favorite producers and winemakers (Donnhoff, Keller, Leitz, Muller-Catoir, Emrich-Schonleber) are from other regions.

In fairness, I haven't had too many wines from Baden, Franken, Wurttemberg, or the Mittelrhein thus far, and have yet to try anything from the Ahr, H-B, or either of the former East German regions.

It's hard to pick one favorite, but I'll have to go with the Mosel, especially since it now includes the Saar and Ruwer. I probably drink more from the combined Mosel/Saar/Ruwer than any other German region. On the other hand, some of my absolute favorite producers and winemakers (Donnhoff, Keller, Leitz, Muller-Catoir, Emrich-Schonleber) are from other regions.

In fairness, I haven't had too many wines from Baden, Franken, Wurttemberg, or the Mittelrhein thus far, and have yet to try anything from the Ahr, H-B, or either of the former East German regions.

Yeah, I was hoping against all odds that someone would vote for 'other.' I came damn close to voting Franken, but they just don't have enough Riesling planted.

Cheers,
Bill

Yeah, I was hoping against all odds that someone would vote for 'other.' I came damn close to voting Franken, but they just don't have enough Riesling planted.

Cheers,
Bill

Bill - I also like Franken Rieslings, in the rare event that I see one over here. Most of the Franken wines that make it over here are either Silvaner or Scheurebe, which can both be impressive in their own right.

Since you are in Germany, you'll have to post a note on something from Saale-Unstrut one of these days, and let us know if there is anything particularly interesting coming from there nowadays. Supposedly, Pawis is good. At least I see a note on Zimmerling in Sachsen once in a great while.

Yeah, I was hoping against all odds that someone would vote for 'other.' I came damn close to voting Franken, but they just don't have enough Riesling planted.

Cheers,
Bill

Bill - I also like Franken Rieslings, in the rare event that I see one over here. Most of the Franken wines that make it over here are either Silvaner or Scheurebe, which can both be impressive in their own right.

Since you are in Germany, you'll have to post a note on something from Saale-Unstrut one of these days, and let us know if there is anything particularly interesting coming from there nowadays. Supposedly, Pawis is good. At least I see a note on Zimmerling in Sachsen once in a great while.

It is interesting that I can pretty easily find cheaper Saale-Unstrut wine at grocery stores given how small the region is and how far away we are. I was in Saale-Unstrut in May or April? It is a beautiful region that I'd like to spend some more time in. Pawis, Kloster Pforta and Lützkendorf are the 'Big Names.' Sachsen is the only region that I've never visited and that needs to change. There was a time maybe ten years ago when you could buy Saale-Unstrut and Sachsen wines in the US. I believe it was either Wackerbarth or Schloß Proschwitz from Sachsen and Pawis from Saale-Unstrut that was brought in from a ballsy, short-lived importer.

Cheers,
Bill