Do you hate Bordeaux?

[David M. Bueker]

and let's consult the exchane rates shall we...

February 2002: .85
February 2008: 1.48

A $15 wine back then is a $22 now with just the exchange changes. If we add a touch (just a touch) of inflation as well we're around the $25 mark.

If we're talking about European wines we might just have to get over it.

I've never heard of either of those labels, and there aren't exactly a lot of hits at Wine-Searcher:

Reynon Blanc

Bonnet Blanc

By the way, it looks like Bonnet is Entre Deux Mers, which isn't exactly what I'd call "Bordeaux".

I consider that a very high level of Wine Searcher hits for such modest wines. (BTW, Wine Searcher is pretty useless for finding wines of any category in Belgium and France; most merchants cannot be bothered with it.)

Entre-deux-Mers is bang in the middle of the Bordeaux area; not the most prestigious appellation, though more so than Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur, but indisputably Bordeaux.

Nice of you to redefine a wine region that predates you by several hundred years. When can we expect your revised and updated Oxford Companion to Wine?

Entre-deux-Mers is bang in the middle of the Bordeaux area; not the most prestigious appellation, though more so than Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur, but indisputably Bordeaux.

Look, if you guys can't come up with any better examples of "value" in "Bordeaux" than EDM, then quod erat demonstrandum.

Game, set, and match.

[David M. Bueker]

Nice of you to redefine a wine region that predates you by several hundred years. When can we expect your revised and updated Oxford Companion to Wine?

Entre-deux-Mers is bang in the middle of the Bordeaux area; not the most prestigious appellation, though more so than Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur, but indisputably Bordeaux.

Look, if you guys can't come up with any better examples of "value" in "Bordeaux" than EDM, then quod erat demonstrandum.

Game, set, and match.

Nathan - you should go in with Drew Skroback for an on-line wine journal (screwedbythebordelais.com).

With the dollar where it is, and global demand increasing you have to look a little deeper. Just because it itsn't a famous name doesn't mean it's not good. Heck, who had heard of the Cotes de Castillon back in 1990? Now we know there are really fine wines there, and there's actually competition to buy some of them.

Your perceptions are clouded by your insistence on top wines always being at your price point.

Nathan,

>Look, if you guys can't come up with any better examples of "value" in "Bordeaux" than EDM, then quod erat >demonstrandum.
>
>Game, set, and match.

I think you are playing a different game from the rest of us!

There are indeed very good Entre-Deux-Mers, and this is a quintessentially Bordeaux wine!
In fact, most Bordeaux comes from here!!!

There have been some valid criticisms of Bordeaux on this thread and some outlandish ones...
Obviously, modestly priced Bordeaux is facing some very tough competition and finding the good values takes a little work.
However, the investment in time and money can certainly reap big rewards!

In France, Bordeaux's biggest rival is the Côtes du Rhône. Languedoc-Rousillon wines unfortunately have poor press and the good ones are little known.

To give a simple answer to a very complex question, the best values wines in Bordeaux today are probably to be found in the Côtes, northern Médoc, and Graves regions in my most humble opinion.

A problem no one raised (because the geeks on this board don't drink that kind of wine) is the disappointing quality of generic Bordeaux, with many thin, weedy wines being sold at cut rate by supermarkets.

For the naysayers, I just wish you could drop by my house and let me take you to a local hypermarket. You would not believe the prices and, if care is taken, the quality there is to be had.
You'd probably want to move here next week...

Best regards,
Alex R.

I can't understand hate. There's aspects that are poor there, starting with the lakes of poor overproduced wine trading off the name Bordeaux, but with nothing resembling what made the name. At the other extreme prices are going through the roof for the most prestigious wines. Oh well, in between those two extremes, there's much of interest and I'm happy to have a selection of Bordeaux wines in my cellar, even if it's a modest proportion of my stash.

I remember having lunch with Andy Abramson in a bistro/wine bar and him saying, "anyway I hate Bordeaux". I know he didn't mean it literally, or if he did, it's in a context, he doesn't wait for Château Palmer bottles to turn up at Sévéro and shoot them or anything...

But Eric Asimov has a thoughtful take on hating Bordeaux. Do you agree with his statement that this is a generational thing? I think that's truer than we'd like to admit, but possibly not for the reason he gives. Discussion?

I'll let you know my feelings about Bordeaux after I pop a bottle of La Conseillante 1990 tonight.

I'll let you know my feelings about Bordeaux after I pop a bottle of La Conseillante 1990 tonight.

Wow, great wine. My note from couple years ago:
Great concentration, but still with a delicacy that really pulls one
in. Mineral, vanilla, and leather aromas, deep dark fruit. Complex and
beguiling. The old "iron fist in velvet glove" metaphor comes to mind.

Hope your bottle shows as well.

I tend to like EDM whites, and until recently could get decent ones for $7-8.
Bordeaux AC on the label tends to make me run away.
I'd agree that the Cotes (especially CdCastillon) tend to have some good values, but as always it comes down to producer.
For more structure, Fronsac can offer good short-to-mid term agers in my limited experience.

For the naysayers, I just wish you could drop by my house ...

Careful what you wish for Alex. I do get to France on occasion, and that knock at your door...

You would not believe the prices and, if care is taken, the quality there is to be had.
You'd probably want to move here next week...

Find me a job that will allow me to maintain my current (semi-modest) lifestyle and I'll be there! I would like to have a job managing the tasting room at Petrus, or Yquem.

Your perceptions are clouded by your insistence on top wines always being at your price point.

My perceptions are clouded by my knowledge of the Bordeaux which is available for sale in the market, what it tastes like, and what it costs.

Especially vis-a-vis about a gazillion other winemaking regions around the world.

A problem no one raised (because the geeks on this board don't drink that kind of wine) is the disappointing quality of generic Bordeaux, with many thin, weedy wines being sold at cut rate by supermarkets.

No - that's precisely the problem we are raising.

Show us the drinkable Bordeaux in the $9.99 to $14.99 range.

To the best of my knowledge, it simply doesn't exist.

[Again: Especially vis-a-vis about a gazillion other winemaking regions around the world which produce interesting juice in that price range.]

[David M. Bueker]

Your perceptions are clouded by your insistence on top wines always being at your price point.

My perceptions are clouded by my knowledge of the Bordeaux which is available for sale in the market, what it tastes like, and what it costs.

Especially vis-a-vis about a gazillion other winemaking regions around the world.

Just because you don't care for Bordeaux does not make it bad. Let's face it, you are a wine curmudgeon/troll who doesn't like anybody asking you to pay market price for any wine. Bordeaux is not some special case with you. You've been on this horse with other wines for years.

I've bought fantastic classified and unclassified Bordeaux over the last 10 years for much less than a bottle of California Pinot Noir (even an inexpensive one) that not only provided pleasure on release, but will outlive your cranky prose. I'm almost through my case of 2001 Cap de Faugeres, and it's too bad, because it's been a delicious wine. But there's always something out there.

Indeed the top wines have rapidly gone up in price, and 2005/2006 is not a buyer's market in the USA, but that does not change the 2001, 2002 and 2004 (all quite delicious if unheralded) wines that are still available at reasonable prices. You've set a $10-$15 strawman that is hard to knock down, but try doing it with other wines. There's not much there these days. Sure I had a tasty Argentinian Malbec last night that was $6, but there were two $10 versions in the same blind tasting that I would never spend the money for. It's a crap shoot everywhere at the bargain level. You just know more about bargain level wines in other regions, so you can claim they are better than Bordeaux. But you are doing it out of ignorance or poor distribution in your area, not because of reality.

Nice of you to redefine a wine region that predates you by several hundred years. When can we expect your revised and updated Oxford Companion to Wine?

Entre-deux-Mers is bang in the middle of the Bordeaux area; not the most prestigious appellation, though more so than Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur, but indisputably Bordeaux.

Look, if you guys can't come up with any better examples of "value" in "Bordeaux" than EDM, then quod erat demonstrandum.

Game, set, and match.

People like you are the main reason I stay out of the wine sections of Robin's bailiwick on the web here - most areas of which, I must say, I enjoy immensely.

What nobody has mentioned is the fact that you are a dick. They've been all around the edges of it, but nobody has wanted to touch it.

I'll just fade back into my food and weird areas now.

Wow. This is really turning out to be an interesting topic -guess I'll chime in (sorry ). Less than a decade ago when I was first getting into wine, I bought and drank more cheap Bordeaux ($1-$20) than is probably advisable. My father is a great lover of Bordeaux, which might speak both to my interest in it and the generational gap that has been mentioned. I loved the wines (which IMO still offer more complexity and value at today’s prices than anything out of CA), and was proud of myself when a cheap little Premieres Cotes, Cotes de Francs, Blaye, or EDM (Jesus, Lezongars BS was like $13 back then) delivered so much for the money. I remember buying basic Bordeaux for $6, and being floored at the quality! I eventually visited Bordeaux and fell head-over-heels for the wines of Margaux (still today, despite the cost I have to keep a few bottles of Ch. Palmer on hand, and I'll drink any vintage of Chateau Margaux that YOU have to offer.) But even though cheapish Bordeaux can still be found, it isn't falling into my lap like it used to. Instead I've turned to the Loire for my everyday reds, which completely over perform for the price without much risk of being 'discovered' by prestige-seekers. My tastes have changed a little too, and I'm more apt to spend money on Burgundy (or of course Germany, Austria, and Alsace .) Some of you have commented on the 'crap-shoot' that Burgundy can be. Maybe it is a little (or much) more labor-intensive than Bordeaux. But like Bordeaux, if you put your faith in producers that you've come to love and admire, you rarely go wrong. The top wines, with few exceptions-DRC, Gouges, Vogue-are usually cheaper than many of the classed growths of Bordeaux, and IMO more stylistic diversity can be found. I hope that this great wine region can reconcile and repair the damage that greed has done to its image, because present and future wine lovers would lose one of the worlds biggest and most important puzzle pieces without it.

When Chef Carey calls you a dick, you know that you are in trouble!

I think he should go back to the food forum and give us some mashed potato recipes.

When Chef Carey calls you a dick, you know that you are in trouble!

Surely you're not implying there's a certain penile quality to my personality?

Btw, the wine was terrific. We had duck and pork with it.

I think he should go back to the food forum and give us some mashed potato recipes.

Why? When you can just use the spiffy index in my second book and turn right to it?

Sam,

Look me up if you're out this way.

Nathan,

I do not know what wines are on *your* market, so maybe your disappointment is due to the less-than-desireable selection of what you can buy in local stores.
If so, I commisserate.

Bill,

Thanks for an interesting and balanced post.
Despite my pot shots at Burgundy, you have a very legitimate point.
While cheap Burgundy is a much less safe bet than cheap Bordeaux (as well as less cheap, in fact...), you were right to point out that Grand Cru Burgundy is still much less expensive than, let's say, a super-second growth from the Médoc.

Yes, one needs to *segment* Bordeaux: great growths, middle-range, and generics (let's forget about the garage wines, please...).

The standard of great growth Bordeaux is pretty enviable. While some of the crus classés are less than stellar, it is easy to find out which ones. Infinitely less of a trap than trying to relate to 100 producers at the Clos de Vougeot...
So, the only real problem with this category is *price*.

As for the mid-range, this calls for experimentation. However, as several people on this thread have pointed out, when you hit upon a really good Fronsac or Côtes de Blaye at a modest price, you've come across one of the best values in the world of wine today.
So the answer here is to try different wines and, if you're really lucky, you may even come across a wine merchant who actually knows something about what he is selling.

With regard to generic Bordeaux, this is often just one step above vin de table. We all seem to agree that this is hardly the standard bearer for the appellation it ought to be...

Depite a certain chauvinism, I do enjoy wines of other regions. It is good to vary.
But for a truly fine wine, "home" is unquestionably Bordeaux and, if I'm very lucky, Burgundy (I keep trying...).

Hating Bordeaux is like hating your mother, and calls for therapy.
However, the money would be much better spent on educating your palate.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Aesthetics is a subset of metaphysics; thus questions about Bordeaux quality are unanswerable.

Questions about Bordeaux “qualities” are another matter. At some point, if it hasn’t been done already, chromatographs will pick up selective peaks in Bordeaux that never exist in Cal Cabs. Some palates have sensation receptors for these selective peaks and the perceptual networks to perceive specific positive value.

Most people do not like the elements of Bordeaux which make them unique. While I might refer to them as majestic complexity and gateways to the soul, most people I know would call the qualities collectively ‘barnyard’, if they were educated enough to be familiar with the term. That’s just how it is. To say that young people hate Bordeaux for some social reason is giving them way too much credit.

I very much agree with Asimov that you can’t erase Bordeaux qualities no matter how you treat them. You can’t totally take the class out of a classy lady, even if she could be forced to ride around California with Britney Spears.

Last night my wife and I enjoyed a bottle of 2005 Chateau La Gorce, a $14 Cru Bourgeois from Medoc. It was berry ripe and lavished with new oak, but all Bordeaux, and wonderful – almost magnificent. That’s not a fact, just an opinion of someone lucky enough to be born with Bordeaux-specific brain receptors. Let the others drink Cal Cab – or whatever. So what?

Nice of you to redefine a wine region that predates you by several hundred years. When can we expect your revised and updated Oxford Companion to Wine?

Entre-deux-Mers is bang in the middle of the Bordeaux area; not the most prestigious appellation, though more so than Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur, but indisputably Bordeaux.

Look, if you guys can't come up with any better examples of "value" in "Bordeaux" than EDM, then quod erat demonstrandum.

Game, set, and match.

Others have dealt very adequately with this.

I would just like to add that Nathan's attitude is quite common amongst (former?)Bordeaux lovers and is illustrative of the difficulties facing the Bordeaux industry in marketing all but their very top wines to the very wealthy.

Many of us, who cut our vinous teeth on "super-seconds" when they were affordable and put Bordeaux on a pedestal,find it bad enough and a subject of resentment to have to resort to 4th, 5th or bougeois growths for our "good" claret. Taking the further step of exploring formerly despised appellations like, say, Entre-deux-Mers or Côtes de Bourg can prove just too much, especially as there is a lot of dross to sift through before finding the treasure. It is more satisfying to dethrone Bordeaux and go for other areas. Furthermore these attitudes communicate to children, nephews and nieces and reinforces their healthy (in the young) anti-establishment spirit which naturally plays against an establishment wine like Bordeaux.

Unlike Frederik, I am optimistic that this will all correct itself in time. However, the Bordeaux industry needs to put its house in order. Average quality has to improve enormously. A lot of under-performing estates will have disappear or be absorbed by better performers. A big improvement needs to be made with generics; I read that some firms like Dourthe are making a creditable effort here. Marketing also needs great improvement in traditional markets like the UK and Benelux as well as visibly in the USA; a big reduction in the confusing plethora of château names would help here.

Tim, good sum-up. I am looking forward to an upcoming Wine Focus on Bordeaux where we will all be able to taste and discuss these wines that will not cost an arm and a leg.

[Jenise]

Great Bordeaux takes thought, is cerebral, is complex, can be fantastic and as such I do not drink it with my seafood, pasta or chicken dishes.

Walt

While I agree with you on seafood and usually choose something else for pastas, I'm shocked to see you rule out chicken. An older, softer Bordeaux is often a perfect match--this is why God made St. Emilion!

Most people do not like the elements of Bordeaux which make them unique. While I might refer to them as majestic complexity and gateways to the soul, most people I know would call the qualities collectively ‘barnyard’, if they were educated enough to be familiar with the term. That’s just how it is. To say that young people hate Bordeaux for some social reason is giving them way too much credit.

I'm familiar with the term "barnyard, " but to me almost every single wine lover/geek/fan that uses the term is using it to describe brett. I like just a little barnyard, but while brett is certainly present in some Bordeaux ( though a LOT less now than say pre-1990), I'd scarcely call it unique to Bdx. If anything, I'd guess older Burgs* and Rhones were even more prone, and it's hardly rare in Rioja or Barolo.

* see Hansen (or is it Hanson), "great Burgundy should smell like ...."