Annoying problem with this forum...back button

FWIW (not much, I think, since it's to be expected), phpBB's software behaves the same way on their own forum as it does here: "jump to" another forum, click on a thread, use the back button, get the IE webpage expired/out-of-date message. The only mystery for me is what it is special about this software is what forms-input the phpBB software wants from the browser when there was no apparently entered in the first place.

[Robin Garr]

FWIW (not much, I think, since it's to be expected), phpBB's software behaves the same way on their own forum as it does here: "jump to" another forum, click on a thread, use the back button, get the IE webpage expired/out-of-date message. The only mystery for me is what it is special about this software is what forms-input the phpBB software wants from the browser when there was no apparently entered in the first place.

Mark, I'm just guessing here, but maybe the pulldown menu in "jump to" is interpreted by IE as a form?

[David M. Bueker]

I looked at the phpBB "bugs" forum & did not see the back button listed as a bug issue. Could Robin or ForumAdmin add it? The can't stay logged in issue is listed though, so it's not just us.

[Robin Garr]

I looked at the phpBB "bugs" forum & did not see the back button listed as a bug issue. Could Robin or ForumAdmin add it? The can't stay logged in issue is listed though, so it's not just us.

I'm willing, although I suspect I'll get flamed for posting known IE behavior as a phpbb bug.

I looked at the phpBB "bugs" forum & did not see the back button listed as a bug issue. Could Robin or ForumAdmin add it? The can't stay logged in issue is listed though, so it's not just us.

I'm willing, although I suspect I'll get flamed for posting known IE behavior as a phpbb bug.

That's good for `skin thickening'..

Mark, I'm just guessing here, but maybe the pulldown menu in "jump to" is interpreted by IE as a form?

That makes sense! I don't know if it explains everybody's symptoms but that's a logical explanation of mine. Now that I think of it, the "jump to" list is a relatively unusual navigation tool, if links were used instead IE would probably be happy. But there's no reason to try that hard to satisfy IE - it's just not the big of a deal. Anyway, now that it's explained, I can leave happy

I looked at the phpBB "bugs" forum & did not see the back button listed as a bug issue. Could Robin or ForumAdmin add it? The can't stay logged in issue is listed though, so it's not just us.

David, I think Robin's explained the "bug", at least my version of involving moving between fora. In my case, it sounds like as long as phpBB uses the pull-down list to navigate, IE will always be unhappy. I'm not sure I'd be willing to argue that phpBB should dump the use of the pull-down list in favor of a list of links that could be very long if the number of fora is large. Since there are two easy work arounds to this "problem" - use of the refresh button or the "return to forum" link on the page - I wouldn't blame Robin for being reluctant to pursue it.

[David M. Bueker]

In the grand scheme of things I don't really care anymore if anyone pursues it, I just think it's ridiculous that software that is incompatible with the most used browser in the world, and someone can say it's a bug with the browser. Tail wagging the dog.

I'm not using the back button anymore unlss I forget and slip into old habits.

[Robin Garr]

someone can say it's a bug with the browser. Tail wagging the dog.

I'm not using the back button anymore unlss I forget and slip into old habits.

No one said it's a bug with the browser, David. Frankly, it's a conscious decision made by the IE developers, and it happens to be incompatible with a different decision made by the phpbb team.

Frankly, from my barely competent perspective, I think phpbb is WAY too paranoid about security issues. Refusing to permit HTML, for instance, because a skilled hacker might be able to exploit it to hack a site. That's like worrying about being struck by lightning on a clear day, in my opinion.

But remember that it's open source, created by a lot of volunteers, and many of those volunteers tend to be code-savvy guys WHO OWN FORUMS. Hacker exploits loom very large in their minds, and worrying about whether users with IE get odd behavior from the back arrow is very far down their lists.

someone can say it's a bug with the browser. Tail wagging the dog.
....
But remember that it's open source, created by a lot of volunteers, and many of those volunteers tend to be code-savvy guys WHO OWN FORUMS. Hacker exploits loom very large in their minds, and worrying about whether users with IE get odd behavior from the back arrow is very far down their lists.

Robin, given that phpBB is written by code-savvy guys you would expect them to know about the IE 'bug/feature' and be able to code around it. I would expect them to be able to cope with a bit of odd behavior on the part of IE of whatever flavor. What about the odd behavior of Netscape 6 or 5, Opera v whatever, FireFox 2, 1.5, Mac based browsers (whatever they might be). Professional coders (and this is what they are, even if they are doing it for free) should be able to design for the end user, who happens in this case to be you and me.

I would encourage you to report the perceived problem. Whether or not they give your opinion any weight is another matter, but I would expect them to listen to you as a customer who is using their product.

[Edit] sorry, I got the quotes a bit mixed up there David and Robin. [/Edit]

[Robin Garr]

Robin, given that phpBB is written by code-savvy guys you would expect them to know about the IE 'bug/feature' and be able to code around it. I would expect them to be able to cope with a bit of odd behavior on the part of IE of whatever flavor.

Human nature, Neil. Open source software is both a blessing and a curse. It can yield remarkable results - Linux, Open Office, phpBB3 - but it also can resemble laws and sausages being made. I'm certain there are all sorts of political issues and compromises that go into it, and like all work done by a committe, the result can be both beautiful and flawed.

I would encourage you to report the perceived problem. Whether or not they give your opinion any weight is another matter, but I would expect them to listen to you as a customer who is using their product.

I'll take the bullet and report it. Again, though, bear two things in mind:

(1) "Customers" is a funny word for the voluntary users of open-source software. We pay nothing for this product. It's worth way more than we pay for it. But, somewhat reasonably, the voices of non-participants in the development process (which was open to all) probably don't carry the weight of those who took the lead in building it.

(2) Upon even cursory analysis, there is no "bug" here. IE's developers made a decision based upon security: Don't let the back arrow repeat forms input. The phpBB developers can only work around that by choosing to start over with their setup for the "Jump to" list. Frankly, given that phpBB has multiple built-in options for returning to the previous page, I don't see them entertaining a major change to accommodate idiosyncratic behavior by even the most widely used browser.

I agree Robin. I realise that 'customer' is a tenuous term, but without 'customers' why would they make the effort to put in the long hours of work?

However, software such as this will never stay static, and the 'developers' be they designers, coders or testers, will almost certainly be designing/coding/testing version 3.1 or 4.0 or whatever they want to call it. They will have a long list of bugs that they know about (and no one else does) and modifications that they or others have requested or identified as being a good idea. They will probably have a longer list of suggestions that they have rejected out of hand or will be considered for v5 maybe.

Perhaps I should mention my idea for groupings in poll questions.

[Robin Garr]

However, software such as this will never stay static, and the 'developers' be they designers, coders or testers, will almost certainly be designing/coding/testing version 3.1 or 4.0 or whatever they want to call it. They will have a long list of bugs that they know about (and no one else does) and modifications that they or others have requested or identified as being a good idea. They will probably have a longer list of suggestions that they have rejected out of hand or will be considered for v5 maybe.

Perhaps I should mention my idea for groupings in poll questions.

Neil, let me make a very serious suggestion that is in no way meant to be merely shuffling off this issue: Because phpBB IS open source, its developers welcome input from any user. Its support Email and forums are open to all, and being the moderator of a phpBB forum provides no special status. I can post the back-button issue. But it would likely be even more effective for knowledgeable folks who are directly affected by this (and other concerns) to go post it. There is no structural or political need, and no particular advantage to be gained by passing the complaint through RR or me.

Anyone who's invested in these issues care to volunteer? You're welcome to invoke my name or the name of these forums (not that this will gain you much ) if it makes you more comfortable.

I would think about doing this if the 'problem' was in any way problem for me. However, as I use FF it is not a problem at all. And even if I was using IE 7 I find it easy to pop open a new tab and have the search screen remain there all the time, hence it is still not a problem. Those that may still be using IE 6 can get a plug-in to enable them to use tabs, I think, so again there would be no problem.

[Robin Garr]

When I enter a thread and read and then want to go back to the main forum, I get a message that I need to refresh the page, and then have to affirm I really want to do that. This has only been happening recently in this new format. Is it just me? And how the bejeezers do I avoid having to go to the bottom of each thread and going back that way. I want my back button functionality back.

Okay, Jim, another question. I cannot replicate this behavior even in IE7. I can't make the back arrow NOT work. This raises a further question about possible settings and other conflicts.

Let's start with an easy variable: Do you have wineloverspage.com set as "trusted" in IE > Tools > Internet Options > Security ?

Won't let me add it.. says it must have an https:// prefix.. yes. with an `s'..

ok.. i got it to accept... let me see what happens.. though now only this site is on the safe list, none of the other boards i roam

nope .. that didn't solve the problem; in fact, it's happening with every click now, when before it was intermittent.. I must say I'm ruing the day I started this thread..

Let's start with an easy variable: Do you have wineloverspage.com set as "trusted" in IE > Tools > Internet Options > Security ?

I just tried this, closed IE and restarted it to ensure the new setting took hold. I still get the page expired message after trying to return from viewed search topics. Otherwise, the Back command worked as before.

-- Clark

shave and a haircut . . . two clicks?

[Robin Garr]

nope .. that didn't solve the problem; in fact, it's happening with every click now, when before it was intermittent.. I must say I'm ruing the day I started this thread..

D'oh!

Sotty, that seemed like a logical variable to pursue, once I noticed that the back button in IE7 does not do this on my computer. Weird!

Just out of curiosity, are you working on a work computer, or is there some reason you're required to use IE7? I find Firefox overall makes for a far friendlier computing experience for me ...

I could use firefox, but you know, we geezers are reluctant to change... everything is all set up in ie.. not to worry...like i said.. wish I had kept my trap shut about this.. didn't mean to stir the pot..

Not a problem James. We just want to try and get your computing experience the best that it can be. Remote diagnosis of a computer problem can be very frustrating at times, from both ends. Stick with it and we will find it eventually.

Some of us old geezers also like to experiment as well. I dumped IE a long time back. I used Maxthon for quite a while before trying out Firefox. I find FF just a little better than Maxthon now, and rarely use IE. FF will import all of your IE favorites directly as part of the setup process.

[Robin Garr]

I could use firefox, but you know, we geezers are reluctant to change... everything is all set up in ie.. not to worry...like i said.. wish I had kept my trap shut about this.. didn't mean to stir the pot..

Jim, it's okay! It was an entirely legitimate question, it just led to a frustrating answer, but that's not your fault.

Speaking of old dogs and new tricks, I still can't figure how it is that I've been able to pick up any of this stuff at all ...

Yes it certainly helps that I have been in the computer industry all of my working life. Which is coming to an end scarily quickly now....