Netscape Forum Poll: Rising alcohol trend

As for blaming high octane wine on global warming, there is nothing to prevent earlier harvesting of grapes.

Except unripe flavors. Sugar levels in grapes are not the only measurement. If the seeds and stems are green then the wines will likely taste astingent and have "off" flavors like green pepper or excessive grassy notes (speaking of reds here).

It's all tied together.

Correct, David. James' initial statement reveals an essential misunderstanding of the physiology of winegrapes. If it was simply a matter of picking at lower sugar levels, the problem would be easy to remedy. But then you'd be picking at significantly higher acid to sugar/fruit ratios, and you'd be getting sifgificantly more green flavors and phenols in your wine.

Hoke, David,

I don't agree with this. This debate, which is in my estimation very topical (thank you Robin), is sometimes blurred by the focus on alcohol levels in bottled wine. Those numbers are a side-effect; the reason for them is that some critics and consumers insist that very high quality wine should have a) very ripe fruit flavors; b) relatively soft tannins compared with similar examples from 30 years ago; and c) an absence of any green flavors or any firm tannins.

Most of the increase in alcohols in the new world is due to deliberate choices by the wineries, not climatic change. This can be easily seen in the argument between growers and wineries in Napa; wineries are requesting higher and higher brix levels, growers are complaining about it. There is comparable pressure on Old World wineries to make 'critic wines', but it is at least accompanied by highly atypical vintages like '97 and (especially) '03 that make more balance fruit well-nigh impossible. But even in the old world it has a lot to do with deliberate choice.

Re 'more green flavors': you both seem to be accepting the new assumption about ripeness levels, that 'green' flavors are simply undesirable in red wine. This choice, which IMO has little to do with plant physiology and everything to do with the palates of several important critics, is relatively new. Most if the great classic clarets and CA Cabernets I was raised on had at least some capsicum notes, as do current bottles of my favorite non-classic red wines such as Chinon and Teroldego; the effort to eradicate this range of flavors is an important part of the trend towards higher levels of ripeness. (That, and candied fruit flavors and falling-off-the-bone tannins.)

Wine is subject to fashion trends, like so many other consumer goods. I just hope this hemline goes back down again before too long; I would love to be able to drink Bordeax again, for one thing.

[David M. Bueker]

Re 'more green flavors': you both seem to be accepting the new assumption about ripeness levels, that 'green' flavors are simply undesirable in red wine.

Not at all. I love Sociando-Mallet (to name a wine that usually has some balanced greeen flavors), but if one picks too early in order to keep sugar down, one risks less ripe flavors and thus out of balance green elements.

Please note that when I say less ripe I mean less ripe than what would be considered quality wine by folks on this site, not by fans of Yellow Tail.

Grapes generally need a certain amount of hang time to achieve phenolic ripeness. Pick before that window opens up (to avoid excess sugar accumulation) and there's serious flavor risk.

Even winemakers like Joe Davis (Arcadian) who preaches earlier pickign and lower alcohols is getting higher alcohols in his wine. I challenge you to say that Joe is making his wine for the critics. He'll find your house & explain in no uncertain terms that you are wrong.

(And yes, I realize I am feeding the troll-ish post that I initially railed against.)

Oliver, I agree with both you and David. (hope that doesn't make me a flip-flopper)

I attempted to point out that high alcohol levels are a result of multiple forces at work. Part trend-driven, part critic driven, part climatic driven, part driven by improvement in techniqes in vineyard and winery. We can't single out one over the other; and we obviously have disagreements over which carries more weight in the argument.

I (like you and David) have more "European" palate preferences, so I tend to favor the wines you relate to, Oliver. And like you I have been conditioned by my life of tasting experience to consider some elements (pyrazines, capsicum, astringency, etc.) to be normal and expected components of certain wines. But just as I don't want winemakers 'fattening up' and glossing out wines through over-ripeness, I don't want to them to intentionally pick under-ripe grapes either.

The winemakers I work with by and large don't strive for extraordinarily high brix levels, and they certainly don't ask for wines to dehydrate on the vine (If they're going to make Amarone-style wines, they'll do it post harvest, than you very much.). But I've had many a winemaker tell me that they've seen the brix go higher and higher as a natural concomitant to improved growing techniqes, more efficient winemaking techniques, and...and let me stress this as what the winemakers are saying....warmer growing conditions. These same winemakers recognize and in some cases conform to the trends, yes, but they differentiate those clearly from the physical/climatic conditions that apply. Mind you, we're not talking here about the Cult Wines and the Trendsetters and the ParkerPointFollowers; neither are we talking of the rustic artistes living in the woods. These are basically the workaday winemakers in the middle.

Hey, if you want to argue the influence of trends, I'd say you could argue more effectively to a negative trend, that of the diminishing influence of oak in white wines. That could be directly attributed to trend influencing, rather than climate. There the only question remaining is whether it is critic driven or consumer driven.

As for blaming high octane wine on global warming, there is nothing to prevent earlier harvesting of grapes.

Except unripe flavors. Sugar levels in grapes are not the only measurement. If the seeds and stems are green then the wines will likely taste astingent and have "off" flavors like green pepper or excessive grassy notes (speaking of reds here).

It's all tied together.

David,
That is true so I am just going to drink higher up the hill.
Walt

Speaking of beating dead horses, what's up w/ the Wine Focus forum this month...all they seem to be discussing is Rose for god's sake!!

[James Roscoe]

Speaking of beating dead horses, what's up w/ the Wine Focus forum this month...all they seem to be discussing is Rose for god's sake!!

What got into you today?

Speaking of beating dead horses, what's up w/ the Wine Focus forum this month...all they seem to be discussing is Rose for god's sake!!

What got into you today?

You mean what hasn't got into me yet today, and that would be the Gavi waiting for me at home in the fridge.

Even winemakers like Joe Davis (Arcadian) who preaches earlier pickign and lower alcohols is getting higher alcohols in his wine. I challenge you to say that Joe is making his wine for the critics. He'll find your house & explain in no uncertain terms that you are wrong.

That's a bit combative, David. Since I didn't say any such thing, we can save him a trip. Without having tasted his wines that would be too imaginative of me altogether.

This isn't binary, either 'green/unripe' or 'disgusting pancake syrup'; or for that matter 'craven winemaker caving to the critics' or 'artisanal hero keeping it real'.

Not at all. I love Sociando-Mallet (to name a wine that usually has some balanced greeen flavors), but if one picks too early in order to keep sugar down, one risks less ripe flavors and thus out of balance green elements.

Please note that when I say less ripe I mean less ripe than what would be considered quality wine by folks on this site, not by fans of Yellow Tail.

Grapes generally need a certain amount of hang time to achieve phenolic ripeness. Pick before that window opens up (to avoid excess sugar accumulation) and there's serious flavor risk.

You're begging the question, though. Obviously we're talking about a continuum, with no clear right/wrong choices except at the extremes. My point was that a great deal of the shift has been deliberate, which suggests that it is reversible. I would like to see it reversed, at least to some extent.

[David M. Bueker]

Even winemakers like Joe Davis (Arcadian) who preaches earlier picking and lower alcohols is getting higher alcohols in his wine. I challenge you to say that Joe is making his wine for the critics. He'll find your house & explain in no uncertain terms that you are wrong.

That's a bit combative, David.

So's Joe (listen to his bits on Grape Radio).

[David M. Bueker]

Not at all. I love Sociando-Mallet (to name a wine that usually has some balanced greeen flavors), but if one picks too early in order to keep sugar down, one risks less ripe flavors and thus out of balance green elements.

Please note that when I say less ripe I mean less ripe than what would be considered quality wine by folks on this site, not by fans of Yellow Tail.

Grapes generally need a certain amount of hang time to achieve phenolic ripeness. Pick before that window opens up (to avoid excess sugar accumulation) and there's serious flavor risk.

You're begging the question, though. Obviously we're talking about a continuum, with no clear right/wrong choices except at the extremes. My point was that a great deal of the shift has been deliberate, which suggests that it is reversible. I would like to see it reversed, at least to some extent.

I would beg to differ on the "great deal" point.

The thing I wonder about is which wines did people buy before they became high octane? Loring has always been Loring (i.e. high test). Turley has always been Turley. Some increase in alcohol is inevitable due to the changing weather, but the poster children for high alcohol wine have pretty much always been that way. If you are bemoaning Leoville Barton going from 12% to 13.5% then you have nothing to blame but our collective carbon footprint.

My first post here so be nice! I'm generally on David's side. I think Corti is a crazy businessman, dictating what his customers can buy at his store (but it's his right). I also think Robin's language is a bit inflammatory: "monolithic, mouth-searing high-alcohol blockbusters" with "kerosene character". Maybe some, but not all wines over 14% deserve that characterization.

When one considers the growth of interest in wine and the various ways wine can be enjoyed (not exclusively with food), I think the more extracted, fruitier, soft-tannin, ready-to-drink wines have a place, and have helped broaden the appeal of better-quality wine. Don't we all think things are better today than in the 60's when most Americans thought Chablis and Burgundy were jug wines?

Balance and variety is what wine enjoyment is all about for me. I value balance in wine because it usually leaves me with a desire to have more. I also like trying wines that push the limits, and I use my experiences to hone in on what I like. Taste is what matters, not a number on the label. I think winegrowers and makers should be free to coax whatever they can out of their fruit and their wines, and the marketplace will ultimately determine what styles sustain.

If lower alcohol wines with a more 'traditional', or restrained, or austere style were no longer available, that would be sad, but I don't think that's the case. Three cheers for choice!

I think it's peaked and is on its way down again.

I'm happy about that.

I went up to Sonoma County on Saturday (Rod Berglund was putting on a birthday party) and of course snaffled a couple of cases of wine between here, there and the other place. Not 1, except a singular Zin, was over 15%. How about a Chard at 13.3%? (Porter Creek.)

Joseph Swan '03 Stellwagen Zin came in at 15.8% alcohol, and has a bit of residual sugar. Once again it's a wine all its own - I find it hard to think of anything that it's "like".

Welcome Ken.

Okay, Ken, per your request, we'll go easy on a newbie.

One point has to be made though:

When one considers the growth of interest in wine and the various ways wine can be enjoyed (not exclusively with food), I think the more extracted, fruitier, soft-tannin, ready-to-drink wines have a place, and have helped broaden the appeal of better-quality wine. Don't we all think things are better today than in the 60's when most Americans thought Chablis and Burgundy were jug wines?

False opposites. The two sentences don't necessarily follow each the other, Ken. You're putting up an opposition that doesn't necessarily exist. Think about it.

[quote="David M. Bueker"]
Except unripe flavors. Sugar levels in grapes are not the only measurement. If the seeds and stems are green then the wines will likely taste astingent and have "off" flavors like green pepper or excessive grassy notes (speaking of reds here).
It's all tied together.[/quote]

Well, we all know this is an equation with a lot of variables. Obviously warmer weather means in principle more alcohol. On the other hand, recent years have shown that you can grow decent white wine - not too alcoholic - in hot climates where this was never thought to be possible.
Obviously, the right techniques in the vinyard and technology in the cellar play a large role too.

Yes, in Austria the alcohol in wine is rising. But this can be attributed as much to the influence of the vintners as to the warmer climate. It is obviously useless to try to produce 9% dry table wines in hot climate, but 15%+ monsters can be avoided without sacrificing ripeness. Whether you think they should be avoided is a completely different question. I personally agree with Robin.

[David M. Bueker]

Yes, in Austria the alcohol in wine is rising. But this can be attributed as much to the influence of the vintners as to the warmer climate. It is obviously useless to try to produce 9% dry table wines in hot climate, but 15%+ monsters can be avoided without sacrificing ripeness. Whether you think they should be avoided is a completely different question. I personally agree with Robin.

But let's look at the larger picture. With the exception of some of the poster-wineries (e.g. Turley) it's not an either or situation. Let's look at the most problematic vintage in memory, 2003. Schloss Gobelsburg produced a Gruner Veltliner 'Steinsetz' with 13% alcohol. The also produced the Riesling Alte Reben with around 15%. I can choose which one I buy (in fact I bought both). Now in more 'normal' vintages (and what is normal these days?) I can get 12% or 14.5% wines from most of the name Austrian producers. The consumer can then choose which one they want. Nobody is forced to buy a 15% alcohol wine, yet people rail against them (see Corti and Dunn) while there are still oceans of other wines out there.

The funny thing is that I am defending these wines, but I almost never buy them. I exercise the choices available to me. Some people really do like the higher alcohol, richer-styled wines. That may be beyond the comprehension of some folks here, but it's true. You're not going to convert them.

I sometimes like them both although I'm trending towards the leaner wines.

One problem I have is that there is really very little "choice" anymore if you want to drink California wines. I can count maybe 20 wines from California in my collection that have a nominal abv of below 14%. Like I noted above, "Supertuscans" from "cult" winemakers are now pushing past 15%.

To a certain extent, the choice is not there unless you switch to imported wines that are not always easy to find. I like imported wines, but I also want to support the local industry that has helped preserve, to a degree, a beautiful landscape from complete suburbanization.

Maybe I didn't check close enough, but haven't notice Primitivos (the ones from Southern Italy) going up very much; compared to California Zinfandels. Isn't the climate in Italy hotter?

[David M. Bueker]

Maybe I didn't check close enough, but haven't notice Primitivos (the ones from Southern Italy) going up very much; compared to California Zinfandels. Isn't the climate in Italy hotter?

I've had a few Primitivos with 15%+.

[James Roscoe]

Why are we being nice to the newbies? Oh yeah, this isn't Therapy.

Most of the decent Primitivos I have had are lower in alcohol than 15%, despite the hotter climate.

Maybe I didn't check close enough, but haven't notice Primitivos (the ones from Southern Italy) going up very much; compared to California Zinfandels. Isn't the climate in Italy hotter?

Well, it was already so damned hot in Apulia that a couple more degrees prolly wouldn't have a big effect.

On the more serious side though, I recall a vintage report from Tuscany for 2003---the commentator mentioned that the Cabernet, Merlot and Syrah weren't faring well, although the "native" variety of Sangiovese wasn't affected nearly as much...maybe because the Sangio was acclimated to the region, and the others weren't?