The view from the other side

[Jenise]

Bob said: There is always bottle variation, and even if there isn't any, it can be great fun to compare a wine that's been in the glass for 30 to 40 minutes with wine form a newly poured bottle.

I'm surprised you'd ask for fresh glasses for a new bottle of the same wine, Bob. Not me. Often they come anyway, to be sure, and I'm always surprised and pleased by that elegance, but I wouldn't expect it of every restaurant IF our glasses were empty and IF we were ordering more of the same wine. I agree that bottle variation exists, and I would object to a glass that had taken 30 or 40 minutes to open up getting topped up from a new bottle, but somehow I wasn't imagining that was what this guy was complaining about. Rather, I was picturing the glass empty, and someone like a friend of mine who, while dining at home, did not deliver new glassware but insisted that we all rinse our now-empty glasses between two bottles of Ridge Zinfandel, same vintage, different vineyard sites. I can't imagine the circumstance in which a few drops in the bottom of a glass from a good bottle would taint new wine from a second, and in fact I've waived away new glass service many times. I'm just green enough to think it's not worth wasting the water it takes to wash them.

Thanks, Peter. I went back to the beginning of the blog last September -- this fellow is an excellent writer, but really conflicted, I think, about his career -- mid thirties, successful, with a real chip on his shoulder about the way guests treat waitstaff.

He says he's really big and can give men a look that shows how dangerous he is -- loves violence, etc. etc. Sounds like it might be quite a nice steak house he's running now -- but I'm not sure I would enjoy dining with him, no matter how good the steak and wine was.

Wouldn't matter much -- he says the joint is really tough to get into -- I'd rather make my own steak and drink my own wine.

Regards, Bob

"I can't imagine the circumstance in which a few drops in the bottom of a glass from a good bottle would taint new wine from a second ..."

During the big Wine Spectator tasting I attended, I smelled the empty glass after every tasting, before rinsing with a bit of Fiji water before tasting a new wine. I was startled at how much aroma remained in the empty glass in some cases, and how little, even none at all, in others -- it wouldn't be taint, necessarily, but different aromas. Ridge from two different vineyards -- it would be great fun to compare the aroma in the first, empty glass, and in the second glass.

In this particular case, though, this fellow manages an upscale steak house with fine wines, long waiting list, strict dress code. Guests certainly can disagree on whether a new glass is necessary, but I can't imagine a sommelier in any of the upscale places I've gone to sharing his opinion.

I agree with you BTW in less formal places -- insisting on a fresh jelly glass at our favorite Italian bistro when we get another bottle of Chianti isn't expected or necessary.

And, knowing how nice you are to people generally, I'm sure you don't just "wave away" new glass service. Otherwise, this fellow would see you "wav[ing] dismissively at me as if you are Emporer Diocletian deciding whether a gladiator lives or dies ..."

I'm really glad you posted this link; I've been reading his blog which is now nine months old. He has a number of consistent themes -- lousy customers being one of his favorites. He's a very good writer with a self proclaimed love of violence -- a very good hater apparently.

I haven't been able to figure out how to post to his blog, but it would be fun to engage him directly, either there or here.

Regards, Bob

PS: Janet had your address, and I'll send the CIA's Garde Manger off in a couple of days. B.

Of course there can be large financial consequences if the wrong bottle is opened, but the communication could be straightened out at the time of ordering.

I was speaking with the wine waiter who was showing me his cellar. He told me that one busy evening they slipped up and didn't show the opened wine to the diner first who was a good regular. As the wine was poured the customer said that it was the wrong wine; he'd ordered Cheval Blanc and they were pouring a red wine....

Jenise and Bob:

As to the new glass for every bottle issue---I'll go stand with Bob on this one, especially after he qualified it in his responding post.

If you are in a high-end (read 'high priced') restaurant, or even one with pretensions of grandeur, and most especially in one where there is attention paid to wine, you should indeed expect a new glass for each new bottle. Whether it is a new bottle of the 'same' wine or a different wine.

It is axiomatic to a discerning wine drinker, I think, that "each bottle is unique", with delicious and subtle variations appearing in the glass. Hence the call for a new glass for a new bottle, so you can appreciate those variances and subtleties.

But as Bob says, if you are in a more humble place for casual dining, such is not expected, nor is it necessary or feasible, really.

And as a side note, Jenise, if you are asked to rinse between glasses, tell me, please, that you're not rinsing with water? That's grossly unfair to the wine that is about to be poured into your glass. The presence of water is far, far more damaging to the new wine than the dregs of the old ever could be. Would you want a choice and (one would imagine) rare and expensive wine to be poured into a glass that retained a wash of chlorine and fluoride? Ugh.

I also have some sympathy with the view that if I order a bottle of wine I expect the restaurant to deliver that bottle without being hassled to verify that the bottle is correct. The food is not held up for your nod before being placed on the table. Of course there can be large financial consequences if the wrong bottle is opened, but the communication could be straightened out at the time of ordering. And the bottle does not come with a price tag when you approve it anyway!

They aren't 'hassling' you, though, they're carrying out a normal part of the wine service. Normal and very useful; there are all sorts of mistakes that can be made, and having the diner glance at the bottle would get rid of most of them.

I appreciate being shown the bottle before it's opened. I was recently at a very nice high-end French restaurant and we ordered a 2000 CdP. What was presented at the table was a 2003 from the same producer. They had apparently failed to update that wine on their list. We declined it and ordered something else altogether.

I worry about fresh glasses, and often avoid them; the smell of rinse-aid (or indeed the smell of the tap water, around here anyway*) is far worse than the smell of the previous wine.

There's a fine-dining tradition in Italy of rinsing the glasses with a little of the wine before pouring, which to me makes a lot of sense.

* I was staying in the city of Napa once and noticed that the water was corked. Apparently one of the minor 'corky' chemicals is a frequent problem in municipal water systems.

* I was staying in the city of Napa once and noticed that the water was corked. Apparently one of the minor 'corky' chemicals is a frequent problem in municipal water systems.

My water smells a bit corky also. I've lately only been drinking mineral water because I just can't stomach tap water. So how should one clean one's wine glasses in such an environment?

-O-

With wine. I used to think the Italian practice was strange, but now I think they're right, it's the only way to be sure that the glass is neutral. Well, not the only way, but by far the easiest.

Thank god.. the thread title had me thinking that you had .. well.. changed sides... . ok.. it's all good....

I appreciate being shown the bottle before it's opened. I was recently at a very nice high-end French restaurant and we ordered a 2000 CdP. What was presented at the table was a 2003 from the same producer. They had apparently failed to update that wine on their list. We declined it and ordered something else altogether.

IMO it is pathetic that restaurants can use the showing of the bottle to cover up these practices. If you had not noticed the vintage on the bottle at the time of display, the restaurant may have got away with palming off another vintage on you which you could not later send back. (That was the point of my "Ch Margaux" anecdote too.)

BTW, I should make it clear that I am fully aware that the showing of the bottle is conventional, and in a restaurant I play along with the game politely and calmly. It is only as a matter of principle that I object. It seems to be an idea that arose more as a cover-your-backside practice, rather than one rooted in customer service.

IMO it is pathetic that restaurants can use the showing of the bottle to cover up these practices.

I've had this happen multiple times. I always ask to speak to the manager to inquire as to why the discrepancy is allowed to stand. I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer. I am not ugly with them, but I do express my disappointment. Maybe if enough people speak up, they will keep wine lists current.

I have also had people return with a different vintage and inform me they are out of the vintage listed. They ask if the bottle proffered is acceptable. Sometimes it is; more times than not it is from an inferior vintage and I refuse the bottle.

Having read more of the blog, I must say I'm with Keith M. I find the whole thing rather distasteful. I can understand someone getting upset with customers. I can understand staff talking to each other over a beer. But I think it is a small vindictive mind that decides to go public with these anecdotes. Regardless of whether I feel personally implicated in any of them I don't want to get anywhere near this person.

Randy, one of the points Andrea Robinson made at her three day seminar last year was that restaurants should print their wine lists using their inventory system. There are some excellent programs that will convert the inventory databases for financial accounting purposes into a diner friendly format.

She also recommended that the wine lists be printed out daily to be sure they were up to date, at least for fast moving items.

"Mistakes" in vintages almost always reflect badly on the restaurant in her opinion. I thought it was great advice since most of the attendees were ITB.

I've seen a few restaurants in our area offer two types of menus, shorter ones with fast moving items, and a longer one -- printed out less often -- for the older "reserve" stuff.

Regards, Bob

"Mistakes" in vintages almost always reflect badly on the restaurant in her opinion.

Of course it does. I understand how it happens, but it also shows sloppiness. It makes one suspect of their food handling and preparation as well. This is what I point out to the managers I speak to. I usually get a blank stare, but I have had some good interactions as well. I give the latter a second chance.

BTW, I should make it clear that I am fully aware that the showing of the bottle is conventional, and in a restaurant I play along with the game politely and calmly. It is only as a matter of principle that I object. It seems to be an idea that arose more as a cover-your-backside practice, rather than one rooted in customer service.

It can work two ways as well. I can picture a diner (incorrrectly)remembering a wine drunk previously and attempting to re-order the same, but a look at the label will clarify the position. I always figured the bottle showing was supposed to allow the diner to confirm that he's getting what he thought he wanted - in other words to stop him from making an error.
I agree that under no circumstances should the bottle proffered differ from its description on the wine list.
cheers,
Graeme

"Of course it does. I understand how it happens, but it also shows sloppiness."

And fundamental, financial sloppiness, Randy. It means one of two things: either the restaurant doesn't inventory its wine and liquor inventory on a regular, consistent basis or it does inventory but doesn't think enough of its customers to inform them accurately of what's in their inventory.

If it's the former, the restaurant faces serious financial problems and should get a good accountant to tighten the ship.

If it's the second, well ... they maybe they don't deserve to stay in business.

I do think that many restaurant managers simply don't understand or appreciate the difference vintage can make to a wine or to a wine lover.

Keep explaining to the managers, Randy -- I do and a couple of times have seen improvement on a return visit. One fellow gave us a bottle of Champagne -- apparently his accountant had been preaching a better inventory system, and he was delighted with the positive effects of doing so. Try economic self interest next time you make the pitch.

Regards, Bob

I finally took the time to read all the way through the blog.

While I understand the blogger's carpings at times, and understand his frustrations, the telling phrase for me was this:

Sometimes I just don't know what people are thinking when they do or say the things they do.

Change the do or say to write.

All writers should realize that when they write, especially when they write of other people, they reveal things about themselves. Things that perhaps they do not know, or understand, about themselves, but that other people see and understand.

Randy, one of the points Andrea Robinson made at her three day seminar last year was that restaurants should print their wine lists using their inventory system. There are some excellent programs that will convert the inventory databases for financial accounting purposes into a diner friendly format.

There's one USA restaurant that I came across that uses Celler Tracker for its inventory and if you go to their website you can see their wine list in real time -- see http://www.pluckemininn.com/winelist.html

She also recommended that the wine lists be printed out daily to be sure they were up to date, at least for fast moving items.

I ordered a wine (after a lot of discussion with my guest) from a small one piece of paper wine list in a small place, out of stock, second choice - we don't have that any more, third choice, no we don't have it we are in process of changing our wines. We have this and this (shows me bottles) I scour the list and can't see them. I ask and find they are much more expensive.

I ask why they don't update their list, since they print a daily dated food menu, but they don't seem to get it

In these days of PCs and laser printers it is simple enough

Peter, I wonder if this indifference isn't attributable to the importance of California wine in US culture. There's been a general belief expressed for many years -- even back into the early 60s when I visited California wineries as a tourist and not as a wine lover -- that vintages didn't make much difference in California wines since the weather was so consistent year to year.

Wine lovers have become more sophisticated, not only about wines from other countries, but also from California, of course. But I've also heard people say that vintages don't matter much for Australian wines, again because the weather is so consistent.

Regards, Bob

I certainly hope that view isn't as prevalent as it used to be, Bob. At least not in good restaurants. Because then I wouldn't consider them very good restaurants.

CA..and Australia...may be 'blessed' with warm and consistent climates, but that is NO excuse for a steward/restaurateur to become disgustingly lazy and shoddy in this way. Vintages are important, no matter what region we're talking about.

The only exception I can think of is a great restaurant in Atlanta where they don't list the vintages on purpose...but not for deception or for laziness. They tell you right up front that the aim of the restaurant is to select and feature young, vibrant, lively, zesty wines, so what they have on their list is the youngest and the freshest. They are happy to inform you of the vintages if you need to know. The steward also goes to great effort to cull out any wine that, in his mind, is not one that fits the parameters....either as a no-name glass pour for el cheapo rates or as cooking wine.

Of course, in that kind of system you have to trust the steward. I do. I would be more sceptical in other places, though, yes.

Good points, Hoke. I wonder what folks think as a general matter, not winelovers who post on wine discussion boards, but people who enjoy wine but are somewhat obsessed with it like I am.

I can remember that it wasn't for a few years after becoming interested in wine that vintages in California started to seem important. My experience may be unusual -- I'll ask around and see what folks think.

Your report on the Atlanta restaurant is fascinating -- one of the nice points is that they tell folks that up front. Well done indeed.

Regards, Bob

BTW, I should make it clear that I am fully aware that the showing of the bottle is conventional, and in a restaurant I play along with the game politely and calmly. It is only as a matter of principle that I object. It seems to be an idea that arose more as a cover-your-backside practice, rather than one rooted in customer service.

You're ascribing a sinister motive to restaurateurs who do this that in my experience is quite unjustified, not to mention failing Occam's Razor. You could always ask the next server who does it why they do it; I bet that the answer would be 'to avoid mistakes.'