WTN Blah Chablis

[James Roscoe]

Joe,isn't it true that the best chardonnay undergoes a second fermentation? Who cares about all this other French stuff when there is so much good Chardonnay in the north country?

Oh well! There are a few people in this world who will tell you Lincoln was a crappy over rated president. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Did Lincoln drink Chablis?

YES OF COURSE! He was known to have a fabulous palate.

[David M. Bueker]

I'm not looking to get into any argument here, but if you had the opportunity to share my bottle of 2002 Fevre Bougros Cote de Bouguerots that I drank a couple of months ago, you would hardly call all Chablis "blah."

Ah the wine I was drinking when the Red Sox clinched the World Series in 2004. It will never be blah to me.

And did the 2002 Fevre Bougros Cote de Bouguerots cost $13.99 at BevMo?
I didn't expect wonders from La Chablisienne.

BTW, I've been to Fevre in Chablis. You keep expecting a fellow in a robe and sandals to come around the corner.

Restraint. Restraint.

Chablis is good. Chardonnay as a transparent grape shows terroir better than any white wine in the world. You taste the terroir rather than the grape.

Chablis is approximately 1/2-1/3 the price of the big three in the Cote de Beaune. Chablis is priced like St Aubin, but is capable of lasting 50 years in the bottle and can reach exquisite highs that match any other white wine in the world. Yet there is no pretentiousness associated with it like Riesling.

With German Riesling there are what 6000 vineyards, the terroir of whih the typical Riesling fan can identify the characteristics of about 10 or twenty of them. With the exception of a handful of people whose posts I have admired over the years here like John Trombley, the majority of the people that say that wax poetically about Riesling's terroir couldn't identify one vineyard's characteristics from the other. With Chablis, every vineyard has an identifiable charcteristic. I would strongly consider a tasting of Cote de Lechet, Vaillon, Fourchaume, and Montee de Tonnerre to be instructive for the ignorant...



la Chablisienne is one of the most admirable producers in the world in my opinion. Considering that they make somewhere between 1/3 and 1/5 of the wine from one of the world's most superlative and indetifiable terroirs, the job they do is impressive. Tasting a 20 year old Grand Cru Grenouilles that would have cost about 1/3 of a Corton-Charlemagne's from the same year will quickly dispel any doubts.

Dale - as I detailed on another wine board in a sign of weakness when I was travelling those parts - my computer crashed about five months ago and although I'm picking up the pieces, I was literally demoralized and am inching back into continuing. Seriously. Despite being known as "the Redneck" etc etc, I will admit, I cried for a week as I saw about half a year work vanish before my eyes. I could really care less how long it takes; I only want to do it right. My idol Subramanyan Chandrasekhar (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/phys ... tobio.html) wrote a book about every ten years of his life. The ones he wrote in the 40's were still being used at the University of Chicago to teach stellar physics when I was there...

BTW, Joe, since you asked, I would say it's very likely that Lincoln did drink Chablis at some point. As one of the world's finest terroirs, recognized for about a milennium for the superiority of its white wines, Chablis caught on very early, even in the US.

An intersting set of wine lists are displayed in the digital gallery of the New York Public Library:

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigi ... col_id=159

that will give evidence to that.

(Admittedly German "Hock" has been with us for as long, but it is still an interesting collection for those of you who enjoy the historic aspects of wine...)

[David M. Bueker]

Chablis is approximately 1/2-1/3 the price of the big three in the Cote de Beaune. Chablis is priced like St Aubin, but is capable of lasting 50 years in the bottle and can reach exquisite highs that match any other white wine in the world. Yet there is no pretentiousness associated with it like Riesling.

With German Riesling there are what 6000 vineyards, the terroir of whih the typical Riesling fan can identify the characteristics of about 10 or twenty of them. With the exception of a handful of people whose posts I have admired over the years here like John Trombley, the majority of the people that say that wax poetically about Riesling's terroir couldn't identify one vineyard's characteristics from the other. With Chablis, every vineyard has an identifiable charcteristic. I would strongly consider a tasting of Cote de Lechet, Vaillon, Fourchaume, and Montee de Tonnerre to be instructive for the ignorant...

Alan,

It's clear that we have a level of disagreement that even tasting will not change, but I do seriously take issue with the idea that Chablis from the different vineyards is so much more identifiable. Perhaps it is for you (clearly not ignorant on the subject), but for those who are not intimately familiar it's just not so obvious. Yes a horizontal tasting would do wonders, but I can say the same thing about Piesporter Goldtropfchen, Urziger Wurzgarten, Wehlener Sonnenuhr and Leiwener Laurentiuslay. each vineyard has an identifiable characteristic.

As for pretentiousness, your initial discussion re: price certainly dispells pretentiousness (though current retail puts most Chablis far past the prices of St. Aubin). But I have to wonder what pretentiousness is associated with Riesling that is not associated with the cult of Raveneau & Dauvissat.

Yet there is no pretentiousness associated with it like Riesling.

Pretentiousness?

Where? You must be kidding.

These days Chablis is more likely to grace the menu of "prestige" dinners than German spatlese.

With German Riesling there are what 6000 vineyards, the terroir of whih the typical Riesling fan can identify the characteristics of about 10 or twenty of them. With the exception of a handful of people whose posts I have admired over the years here like John Trombley, the majority of the people that say that wax poetically about Riesling's terroir couldn't identify one vineyard's characteristics from the other....

I'm not sure where you are getting this from, but it doesn't take too many bottles of German riesling to show the obvious and wide-ranging vineyard characteristics IMHO..

I didn't say that Riesling doesn't show terroir. I just said Chardonnay does it AT LEAST as well if not better because it is innately a more transparent grape. The fact that Riesling fans are ABCers (anything but Chardonnay) is an indication of the pretentiousness. They scoff at Chardonnay and wax on endlessly about how Riesling shows terroir better than any grape, but it's not true, because Chardonnay does so at least as well if not better (as long as the winemaker doesn't screw it up). The fact that I could sit a relative novice down in front of a Chevalier-Montrachet, Montrachet and Batard-Montrachet, tell them what to look for and have them correctly pick out the vineyards virtually every time is evidence to that (yes I have done that, with my ex-girlfriend).

The first time I ever visited Domaine Daniel Dampt was tasting the 2000's. After I had tasted through he gave me a blind wine. I nailed it immediately as 1997 Chablis 1er cru Cote de Lechet. I HAD NEVER HAD A WINE FROM DANIEL DAMPT PRIOR TO THAT VISIT. It was just that obvious. I everyone who knows me knows I have never claimed to have a great palate. It's just easy to pick out the terroir of Cote de Lechet because Chardonnay is so transparent and all you taste is the soil.

In the case of Loire that Joe mentioned, I find it rather amusing that quite a few of the best Sancerre comes from Kimmeridgian soil, the same soil upon which Chablis vines grow. Because of the irregualrities in the landscape of Sancerre there is much less Kimmeridgian soil. But in Chablis the soil that even the Sancerre vignerons consider to be superior is found in abundance.

So what's wrong with chardonnay? Chablis can age 20, 30, 50 years WITHOUT the protection of residual sugar.

Alan,
I'm really sorry to hear of your lost work. I do look forward to it whenever it comes to print.

Dale (stepping back out of the line of fire, I love Chablis AND MSR Riesling)

The fact that Riesling fans are ABCers (anything but Chardonnay) is an indication of the pretentiousness. They scoff at Chardonnay

Aha, so the problem is not related to riesling but rather the fact that you seem to know some pretensious people. Good natured jokes aside, I don't know any riesling partisans who do not hold certain slices of Burgundy with high respect, even if they prefer riesling.

In addition, these comparison arguments about which grape is "better" are in many ways doomed from the start, but one thing in riesling's favor as opposed to chenin or chardonnay is the diversity of Alsace, Germany, Austria, and increasingly Australia, while for chardonnay you really only have Chablis and Champagne

[David M. Bueker]

Well I happen to love Riesling, but also love Chablis. It really does not matter which one shows terroir better, as they both do it exceedingly well (as long as the dratted winemaker leaves out the oak).

As for your continuing contention about the ease of picking out specific terroirs in Chardonnay - I've seen virtually the same thing in Riesling.

I will admit though that I find your whole tone in this discussion disturbing to say the least.

I didn't determine the tone. Joe Perry determined the tone, and we're all fighting nice as far as can tell. I simply contend that there is at very least little difference between the transparency of the Chardonnay and Riesling grapes. I also find it very confusing that so many people reflexively answer Riesling as the terroir grape, when so many of the world's greatest white wines come from Chardonnay with the terroir screaming through in the form of Montrachet, Chevalier, Meursault Perrierres, Chablis Blanchots, Chablis Valmur etc etc. I don't claim to be a Greman Wine Expert, I can only say that after selling wine for years that I don't necesarily think that the majority of consumers who claim that it is the undeniable king of terroir have any idea what characteristics they should be looking for in a Wehlener Sonnenhur as opposed to Urziger Schwartzgarten. That's not true of everyone, just most consumers I've had the pleasure of deling with over the years - and that's a VERY large sampling.

Joe pretty much implied that he doesn't know the difference between the vineyards in Chablis. It's pretty tough to evaluate the ability of a young Grand Cru Chablis to show terroir twenty years before it's prime especially if you don't know that the vineyards Blanchots and Valmur taste nothing alike. You can say whether you like or not, and that's it. I don't think Chablis is boring because not only does Fourchaume taste nothing like Montee de Tonnerre, but the primary subparcels of Fourchaume - Vaupulent, Vaulorent, Cote de Fontenay, la Fourchaume and l'Homme Mort have unique charcteristics themselves (e.g. Vaupulent faces pretty much south, making it riper within the context of the Fourchaume appellation than the west facing l'Homme Mort). This is exciting stuff for a terroirist, and it is all demonstrated through the Chardonnay grape.

To speak directly to Joe's question, Christian Moreau and Gilles Collet purchased a barrel of Montrachet a few years ago (maybe '88 or '89) and did the elevage themselves. I had it with Christian Moreau and also had an '89 Chablis Grand Cru Clos des Hospices beside it and the Chablis blew it out of the water, so I already know the answer to that. (You didn't know I had that one up my sleeve!)

[David M. Bueker]

Somehow I think Joe's approach was a little more playful/bating, and well...you took the bait. But it's an interesting discussion.

Just because a subset of consumers doesn't know Piesporter Goldtropfchen from Piesporter Treppchen (or the accursed Michelsberg) does not mean that Riesling is not king of queen of terroir (the king is Pinot Noir IMO). But I won't argue Riesling versus Chardonnay with you because there is no point. I think Riesling is tops and you think Chardonnay is. Enough said.

Perhaps though Chardonnay's tragic flaw is how well it marries with oak, thus obscuring (in many but clearly not all cases) it's inherent window on terroir. Let's face it, Chardonnay sleeps around a lot! I've had my fair share of unoaked or minimally oaked Chablis where Valmur or Vaillons, Fore(s)t or Fourchaume came through clear as a bell. In fact, I'm bringing a Chablis on my trip next week precisely to show what it can do with zero oak. (I will love it, my victim will hate it.)

You may claim ignorance on the part of the consumer regarding Riesling, but someone has to educate them. For that problem I blame you retailer.

You may claim ignorance on the part of the consumer regarding Riesling, but someone has to educate them. For that problem I blame you retailer.

That I fully accept (although I basically sell very little wine other than Burgundy).

[David M. Bueker]

I basically sell very little wine other than Burgundy).

No shame in that. Of course now I want to know where. I'm always interested in passionate seller (especially of Burgundy).

I agree with Alan that Chardonnay shows terroir better - exactly why Chablis is so inferior.

I can discern the difference between vineyards in Chablis, though due to lack of experience I cannot put a name to them blind. Again, I find the best to be good (or very good) but equally regarded crus (if this is the best here, this is the best there) in other white Burgundy areas make far more interesting or pure wines. To paint with a huge brush, Chablis is the Jan Brady of white Burgundy.

It could be me, though. All the Grand Crus from many of the best producers included, a 1985 Montelena is my favorite still Chardonnay - and I usually loathe new world shite.

But then again, if I've seen it once, I've seen it dozens of times. Chablis, like great Bordeaux, is left half full at the end of an evening of drinking. Even First Growth Bordeaux cannot compare to the interest and character of great Burgundy, Barolo, Rhone and (yes) Rioja.

I would be interested in knowing which Chablis being produced today will effortlessly age 40 or 50 years. So many of them struggle to make it past 10...

Best,
Joe

Somehow I think Joe's approach was a little more playful/bating

What, drawn, and talk of Chablis!
I hate the word,
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee:
Have at thee, coward!

*ping**ping**ping*

YOU may say that Lachrymae Christi
Is a potion most divine;
You may praise the wine of Asti,
Or claret of '59;
You may talk of your golden sherry,
Of Heidseck, dry and clear, --
But a good drink and a merry
Is plain Milwaukee beer.

'Tis a strong yet mild potation, --
But let that merit pass, --
Its noblest commendation
Is -- "Just five cents a glass!"
Away with your costly Rhenish!
With Chablis, good but dear,
And, waiter, my glass replenish
With plain Milwaukee beer.

Joe - there are an infinite number of examples of Chablis that lasts forever. If I named them all, this thread would become boring. Hell, if you put 1g/l of sugar in just about any of them they will last fifty years, but you would be less able to taste the terroir. But I digress...

The reason Chablis is leftover at the end of the tasting is usually because it is drunk too young, is an "intellectual wine", that everyone thinks that once you get "gunflint" "acidity", etc that there's nothing else there and that generally people move on to the expensive wines which Chablis outside of Dauvissat and Raveneau is not because they trust price tags and not their palates. The reason Bordeaux is leftover is because it's usually not as good as the other wines on the table despite having a 99 point rating.

Also, for the record, I generally drink white wines more than reds in a ratio fo about 2 or 3 to one (maybe 5:2). I progressively find that wine to be an inexpensive German Riesling for several reasons:

1) the quality is about as good for the money as any wine region on earth.
2) the alcohol is generally lower, and I can relax and enjoy a full bottle without the unfortunate side effects.

It doesn't change my arguments, but did want to point out that I do have at least a rudimentary apprecation for the wines...

I'm a little eccentric, so my ideal really nice dinner probably consists of:

Champagne
Chablis
German Riesling
Amontillado
Volnay or other Cote de Beaune Red
Cote de Nuits Red
Madeira or Sauternes

That would make me happy. If we must, we eliminate one of the red Burgs and throw in a Chateauneuf.

I know virtually nothing about Germans - and nothing at all about Amontialldo or Madeira, short of the fact that I like them and generally have a bottle of either one sitting around if I want a sip of wine.

But I have to wonder what pretentiousness is associated with Riesling that is not associated with the cult of Raveneau & Dauvissat.

I'm not part of that cult. Laurent Tribut's wines could be potentailly as good as Dauvissat, in particular his Montmains which is only found in Europe, but they're 1/3 the price. The cult of Raveneau and Dauvissat is either destroying or helping the region, and I haven't decided which one. When ANY wine and/or region becomes a way to show people how much money you have, I lose interest. I'm a big believer in "buying things on sale": not on sale per se but at a fair valutaion. This could be stock, a house, a bottle of wine or whatever else you like. I don't buy Dauvissat or Raveneau because they are not fairly valued right now, they were maybe five years ago. Most other Chablis is, e.g., Daniel Dampt 1er Cru les Lys, Brocard Chablis VV, just about anything from Domaine de Malandes or Corinne et Jean-Pierre Grossot - although the Euro may force us to push the nevelope. Most Germans at least as far as I can tell are also a "buy" through the Auslese level. When I'm not buying wines from my various employers at discounts, I place a fair value on a wine. I don't hunt down the best price, because I don't NEED any wine. If it's worth it, I buy it. I don't buy Dauvissat and Raveneau any more than I buy Harlan or Lafite. I occassionally buy Yquem because I think it's worth it.

Maybe it's because I don't have that kind of money. More likely it's because I have always said regarding the business, if you can't sell Raveneau (or DRC or Lafite or Araujo etc etc) to extraordinarily wealthy people than you're an idiot. You're taking orders. If you sell a bottle of, say, St Romain, and people start buying it buy the case every couple of weeks (difficult with the current exchange rate but you get my point), maybe, just maybe you might have a future in the wine business.

[David M. Bueker]

Well I agree that the "top producer" phenomenon can be either a blessing or a curse. Look at the Nahe in Germany. Dönnhoff is pretty much the undisputed leader in the region, and while he has brought the Nahe to the tip of every German wine lover's tongue, he also overshadows the region. Even Diel barely escapes. But the visibility of the region has been good for producers like Emrich-Schonleber and Schäfer-Fröhlich.

Now Dönnhoff is nearly beyond my financial reach (though I still buy, just less), and I get peppered with questions on another forum that are all variants of "I'm going to buy a case of 2005 Dönnhoff Spätlese, which one is the best?" Amid all of that there are gems in the region like Hexamer's 'Quartzit', Schäfer-Fröhlich's QbA Halbtrocken and others that are great value and fantastic wines for drinking on their own or with dinner.

As it pertains to Chablis, there's a lot of press for the top guns, and it sort of drowns out the little guy. Tanzer provides good information (I don't have the luxury of tasting the wines myself, or a local retailer with good understanding of Chablis), and for a while there was a piece posted somehwere on the net from Burghound that did a good job explaining Chablis. Overall though it's tough to get good information, and selection (at least in the areas I visit) is poor. I see a few from Brocard, some Droin, a bit of Dauvissat and that's about it. I had one shot at 2005 Michel Vaillons and I took it. I would love to find Billaud-Simon and some other producers. (I did actually pick up 2 bottles of '04 Raveneau at a good price on a west coast business trip. What the heck.)

Ah, detente!

David, you must realize that Alan is imho the #1 evangelist for Chablis around (he's worked at Burgundy Wine Company, as a buyer for Crush, etc. and is writing a book on Chablis). He's the only person (well, maybe Florida Jim) that I'd buy an unknown Chablis solely on his opinion (like maybe you or John T in Germany).

[David M. Bueker]

Thanks for the info Dale. I'm always interested in more Chablis. Dry, minimally or un-oaked white wine is something I'm always very interested in.

I'm pretty good at finding the off-dry stuff myself.