Another terminology question..."Old Vine"

The rule is that if 75% of the wine comes from one variety then the wine can have the name of that variety on the label (i.e. it is a varietal wine...in this case varietal is correct).

David, don't some state laws require an even higher percentage?

I just found this on answers.com:

Like other wines produced in the United States, Oregon wines are marketed as varietals. Oregon law requires that wines produced in the state must be identified by the grape varietal from which it was made, and must contain at least 95% of that varietal.

The following came from winexmagazine.com:

In Oregon, for a wine to be labeled as a varietal, it must contain a minimum of 90 percent of that grape (as opposed to the Federally mandated 75 percent). The only exception is cabernet sauvignon, which can be labeled as such with a minimum of 75 percent cabernet juice, as long as it's blended with a Bordeaux-type grape such as merlot.

And finally, liquor-world.com tells us:

The total commitment to quality seems to be a philosophy of all Oregon winemakers, a fact that is reinforced by a labeling law Oregon winegrowers adopted in 1977. By law, an Oregon wine must contain 90% of the varietal grape named on the label, while federal standards in effect in places like California only require a wine contain 75% of the named variety.

Although there's some disagreement here as to whether Oregon mandates 90% or 95%, you can see that it is considerably higher than the 75% national standard.

-- Clark

Dale, your guess is right on the money: for Viñas Viejas:

Grenache (1,262 bottles & 153 pending, 81.46%, avg. 2002.3)
Red Blend (163 bottles, 9.38%, avg. 2003.1)
Tempranillo (80 bottles, 4.61%, avg. 1999.6)
Cabernet Sauvignon (77 bottles, 4.43%, avg. 2000. Verdejo (2 bottles, 0.12%, avg. 2004.0)

Marietta answered my E-mail regarding whether all the wines in their Old Vine blend came from old vines...here is their reply:

Hi Maria,

Thanks for your email – our Old Vine Red comes from any of the grapes that we get in each harvest that will make it taste wonderful, so there have been some blends that have included some grapes from newer vines. It is hard to say whether there is a percentage of “old” vines, and how many years make them old. That said, it is probably a mixture of both old and some newer vines.

Old Vine Red is a proprietary red wine that is round, smooth, “Zinfandel-like,” and noted for its balance, approachability, and consistency. It is primarily comprised of Zinfandel, Petite Sirah and Carignane as well as smaller amounts of Cabernet and Syrah. Various Italian varietals round out the blend.


Kelly Capitani

Marietta Cellars

kelly@mariettacellars.com

So how old are the old vines? Hmmmm....

if i had to guess, i would guess that 'mariettal old vine' is the NAME - NOT a description; as it is on other labels. its like all those wineries with the word 'estate' in their name. you are supposed to think that the wine is estate bottled; but it doesn't actually SAY so. being part of the 'name' changes the rules.

if i had to guess, i would guess that 'mariettal old vine' is the NAME - NOT a description; as it is on other labels. its like all those wineries with the word 'estate' in their name. you are supposed to think that the wine is estate bottled; but it doesn't actually SAY so. being part of the 'name' changes the rules.

I tend to agree.

"Old Vine Red is a proprietary red wine ...," writes Ms Capitani in response to our Ms Samms. I think the word "proprietary" is key here, i.e. it's only a name and probably doesn't have anything to do with the age of the vines or, at least, very little.

Do we need to send in the label and nomenclature police?

Many thanks for checking Maria. I'm surprised, frankly, that there doesn't seem to be any commitment to using juice from older vines.

Regards, Bob

Wow, did I blow that one; I was certain Shiraz would win in a landslide. Grenache? Three to one over Shiraz? How can that be?

Australia (4,443 bottles & 127 pending, 25.45%, avg. 2001.5)

Grenache (3,151 bottles & 25 pending, 17.68%, avg. 2001.3)
Shiraz (879 bottles & 47 pending, 5.16%, avg. 2001.7)

Hi Bob,
Possibly because historically, shiraz, and more especially grenache, were used as the foundation wines for many fortifieds - especially 'tawny ports' which dominated the Australian wine industry through the 20th century until after the 60s. So there would have been lots of old vine material around. Perhaps the shiraz was gradually siphoned of to table wines, but there would not have been any pressing reason to get rid of the grenache, and lots of people were still making fortifieds; and the grenache could always be blended in proprietary reds as well.

Now if your database survey is merely tabulating the names of wines then it could be that plenty of old vine shiraz is not identified as such, whereas it's still considered a selling point for grenache. I don't think that Henschke, for instance, bother using the term 'old vines' on the Hill of Grace or Mt Edelstone shirazes, despite the fact the wines come from vineyards planted in the 1860s and 1920s respectively. Whereas grenache as a stand-alone variety is a bit of a johnny-come-lately, and could possibly do with all the cachet that 'old vines' gives it...

cheers,
Graeme

It looks like you are exactly right, Graeme.

Most of the Australian wines are Shiraz/Syrah:

Syrah (149,809 bottles & 5,784 pending, 61.78%, avg. 2001.7)
Grenache (8,126 bottles & 157 pending, 3.29%, avg. 2002.1)

There are many more Shiraz/Syrah labels:

Syrah about 2,470 different
Grenache about 250 different

[I haven't yet worked out how to determine the exact number of different labels; these counts come by counting the number of pages containing 30 different labels.]

It's clear that a much larger percentage of the Grenache wines are labeled "Old Vine" than the Shiraz/Syrah wines are so labeled.

I haven't yet worked out how to figure the exact percentages, and it should be noted that there are a significant number of wine labels with no wines carrying those labels in the cellars of Cellar Tracker collectors.

Good analysis Graeme.

Regards, Bob

A note on the use of Veilles Vignes in regional Burgundy (not Cote d'Or) as I understand it. Not sure how general the application is in France and the rest of Europe though...

Typically a domaine would have a standard wine of a particular AC, which would be its cheapest wine and for the bulk of its production. Then there would possibly be a number of special cuvées. These may come from vines in particularly favoured sites, or may be made from the oldest vines that the domaine owns. They will have additional domaine-specific names on the label, which are not controlled, such as Veilles Vignes. They will be better wines, produced in smaller quantity, and will attract a premium price. They may well see more oak than the other wines of the domaine. IOW Veilles Vignes will not imply any guarantee of age, but you can be pretty sure the wine will be from the oldest vines on the estate. I'd say the important bit is that it is a premium wine of the domaine.

Seems "Old Vine Red" is not at all like this. It is a brand with an arbitrary name, and it is designed to have a consistent taste irrespective of what goes into it.

Graeme, I figured out a simple way to test your impressions.

As noted above, there are about 2,500 different labels of Australian Shiraz/Syrah wines in the database -- of these 30 contain the phrase "Old Vines" or a little over one percent.

There are about 250 different labels of Australian Grenache wines -- of these 25 contain the phrase "Old Vines", or about 10%.

Regards, Bob