Your best value picks from well established regions

Agree on Evesham Wood. But I've been wary since Russ Rainey sold the winery, and don't know if it still stands up to Russ' standards. Have an opinion on that?

Hey, everyone has an opinion on everything these days! Yes, I think they are still making excellent pinots. I can't buy much when I am down there, so I mainly stick to the Le Puit Sec and Cuvee J pinots, their top two wines, but their more basic level pinots are also very good, including the Grive Bleue and various single vineyard wines for about $35 (cheaper at retail).

[Jenise]

The best value OR pinot I've had--and there are many OR pinots I haven't had at all--is Stoller. Paid less than $25 ea 5-6 years ago for six, a mercy purchase, then forgot about them. When I stumbled over them in the cellar about 3 years later, they'd put on a lot of weight and were frankly amazing. Drank way, way, way above their price.

Truth is, though, I don't often shop value anymore. I enjoy it when I stumble over it, sure, but I'm tired of kissing frogs even though I need to continue doing that on behalf of the wine tasting group I manage. Or at least, pre-Covid I did. So many wines I consider good value have a "but" attached to them, as in "but I wouldn't buy it for myself" or "but I'd still rather pay more and get more".

Pat G mentions a great California brand for value, Navarro, especially if you enjoy leaner, unspoofulated Euro-style wine. In Washington: Rulo's a good value play, the wines are relatively cheap and satisfying. And premium wineries like Kevin White and II Vintners sell for less than they probably should based on the $$ asked for other wines of comparable or even lesser quality.

And this might surprise you: Kendall Jackson Chardonnay. They've dialed back on the sugar and the oak, or so I read so I bought one and put it into a Dork blind tasting, topic Chardonnay. The Dorks all have tons of experience, most are pros ITB. There might have been some bias based on the fact that I was the one who put the bottle in play, but though California was quickly ID'd, the producer guesses were coming in at 4X or better the cost of a KJ. For a mass-production wine, it's not bad at all.

[David M. Bueker]

So many wines I consider good value have a "but" attached to them, as in "but I wouldn't buy it for myself" or "but I'd still rather pay more and get more".

I can certainly understand that. I don't buy much "value" wine, but like to have some on hand for casual get togethers and also for cooking! Especially true for white wine, as I hate using a cup of $50 white wine to make risotto.

[Jenise]

We're lucky to be able to afford the wines we want to drink, David. The majority of wines we drink cost in the $30-50 range; but my tastes are more like $30-120. I will spend more--I love having special occasion bottles around--but except for certain producers unobtainable by any other means, I can own wines I love for less than ordinary retail. And I don't just buy to have wine on hand; I want to taste everything, so I buy as a means of exploration.

Back to the original topic, another good name: anything CVNE out of Spain for instance--pretty consistently great and comparatively a pittance for similar quality from elsewhere.

And back to a question of Pat G's about Burgundy: I honestly don't think there's such a thing as great value Burgundy. There doesn't have to be--demand for the wines is greater than the supply, so where's the impetus to produce or even dump lower quality juice in the value range. Low echelon Jadot and Drouhins don't, IMO, cut it. In Burgundy, good value is a $75 wine that drinks like $150. Stick with new world for 'value'.

Jenise, I understand re: Burgundy. That's why I rarely seek it out. Plenty of decent New World PN out there. Sometimes our favorite LWS will have some entry-level Bourgogne that I'll try. That's about it.

One afterthought on Navarro Vineyards: they frequently offer specials and one-cent shipping by the case. Sometimes in January they offer a mystery 6-pack of wines that need to be cleared out prior to inventory. You can add 6 more to get the one-cent shipping. We've bought several of these cases and never been disappointed. Some of the mystery wines are upgrades that you're getting for a decent discount; we just drink them within a year or so of receipt and they're fine.

I honestly don't think there's such a thing as great value Burgundy. There doesn't have to be--demand for the wines is greater than the supply, so where's the impetus to produce or even dump lower quality juice in the value range. Low echelon Jadot and Drouhins don't, IMO, cut it. In Burgundy, good value is a $75 wine that drinks like $150. Stick with new world for 'value'.

It's an age-old debate but I'm not sure about this. I'm pretty sure I would find more wines that I prefer from Burgundy than the New World in every price range. While the reverse may be true for others.

Also not clear where the cut-off is for 'value' wine. Yes, at a certain point it's all overpriced luxury goods and price differentials do not reflect quality. But why is that cut-off $75 and not $50, $40, $30 or $10. That threshold will vary.

[Jenise]

Oh, I know the threshold varies, but at the sub-$20 category Pat was describing Burgundy's pretty much a no-go.

Burgundy can deliver some surprises in vintages such as 2009 where both the quality and yield are high. Some of the top domaines made shockingly good generic Bourgogne Rouge that year. The rumor is that even with careful pruning their grand cru vineyards were over the legal production limits. The extra grapes went into the Bourgogne Rouge, even though that's not supposed to be allowed.

-Paul W.

[David M. Bueker]

Sub-$20 is a tough putt in so many places.

I honestly don't think there's such a thing as great value Burgundy. There doesn't have to be--demand for the wines is greater than the supply, so where's the impetus to produce or even dump lower quality juice in the value range. Low echelon Jadot and Drouhins don't, IMO, cut it. In Burgundy, good value is a $75 wine that drinks like $150. Stick with new world for 'value'.

It's an age-old debate but I'm not sure about this. I'm pretty sure I would find more wines that I prefer from Burgundy than the New World in every price range. While the reverse may be true for others.

Also not clear where the cut-off is for 'value' wine. Yes, at a certain point it's all overpriced luxury goods and price differentials do not reflect quality. But why is that cut-off $75 and not $50, $40, $30 or $10. That threshold will vary.

Interesting thoughts, Rahsaan, about "value" cut-off. I don't agree with Jenise about "value" Burgundy. I have had very good Burgundy from the Côte Chalonnaise (growers like Joblot, Jacqueson, Dureil-Jantial and F.Lumpp) which cost <€20 in the early 00s and are now creeping over €30. At present I sometimes buy Givry from Domaine Mouton for c.€16; I greatly enjoyed the 2016 in in lightish mineral style. Further north very interesting reds are being produced and sold c.€20 at Irancy (e.g. Domaine Colinot) and Côtes d'Auxerre (e.g. Domaine Goisot). Even on the Côte d'Or, some outlying communes are producing excellent wines at c.€30 (e.g. Domaine Sylvain Pataille at Marsannay). And then there are all these new possibilities in Hautes-Côtes de Nuits, etc.

I can't personally comment on how these wines compare in value with Pinot noir from Oregon or California because I have had so few bottles of those and only many years ago.

[David M. Bueker]

I can't personally comment on how these wines compare in value with Pinot Noir from Oregon or California because I have had so few bottles of those and only many years ago.

And then there is the fact that they are really not the same wine. I finally gave up on finding the mythical holy grail of "Burgundian" Pinot Noir from the U.S. West Coast. Sometimes there are elements that nod towards the old world, but they are clearly different wines.

$20 red Burgundy is hard. I used to buy Jane and Sylvain Bourgogne for $15ish, but more like $25 now. I usually like Drouhin Cote de Beaune but it's over $30 these days. HN Bourgogne David mentioned is good.
White is easier, Drouhin St Veran, Picq Chablis, plenty of choices

[Jenise]

I honestly don't think there's such a thing as great value Burgundy. There doesn't have to be--demand for the wines is greater than the supply, so where's the impetus to produce or even dump lower quality juice in the value range. Low echelon Jadot and Drouhins don't, IMO, cut it. In Burgundy, good value is a $75 wine that drinks like $150. Stick with new world for 'value'.

I don't agree with JenisIt's an age-old debate but I'm not sure about this. I'm pretty sure I would find more wines that I prefer from Burgundy than the New World in every price range. While the reverse may be true for others.

And you live in Europe. Your access is quite different. Just as here, east coast access is greater than west coast access. Both distance and the fact that pinot noir is a production wines in western states insures that we just don't see as much Burgundy here at all.

Ok, but to be fair, not finding wines of good value in your local market is a very different thing from saying there is no such thing as great value Burgundy!

And you make an interesting point about availability in East Coast North America vs West Coast North America. I've only lived in the Bay Area on the West Coast, and the local availability of European wines is quite good there. But I guess it's an anomaly, and probably still lags behind the Northeast.

[Jenise]

Ok, but to be fair, not finding wines of good value in your local market is a very different thing from saying there is no such thing as great value Burgundy!

And you make an interesting point about availability in East Coast North America vs West Coast North America. I've only lived in the Bay Area on the West Coast, and the local availability of European wines is quite good there. But I guess it's an anomaly, and probably still lags behind the Northeast.

Oh there are always exceptions to everything but I was addressing a request from a Southern Californian with a palate tuned to California wine.

Yes, SF is great for availability. I actually live in an area with great appreciation for European wines for both quality and value but our population is small so buying power limited, and Burgundies are rarely among them. And having looked for various Euro wines over the years, I can attest that often the wines I want aren't available on the west coast all. And, if they are, then add 20% to the price.

I'm always surprised to read how keenly priced some European wines are in the New York and SF Bay areas, at least before recent punitive tariffs (for what offence?). One thing that is clear to me is that Burgundy (even the €16 Givry) is inferior QPR to equivalent quality Bordeaux, e.g. Aiguilhe 12 & 14 at the same price, Verdignan 04 at €12 and Courteillac at €10. Of course it can be objected that I am comparing apples and oranges .

I'm always surprised to read how keenly priced some European wines are in the New York and SF Bay areas....

Then you won't want to read about their prices elsewhere in the country!

A combination of local competition, our three-tiered system and different distributors means that the best prices are often in the big coastal cities.

[David M. Bueker]

I'm always surprised to read how keenly priced some European wines are in the New York and SF Bay areas....

Then you won't want to read about their prices elsewhere in the country!

A combination of local competition, our three-tiered system and different distributors means that the best prices are often in the big coastal cities.

Or through gray market importers.

... But I guess it's an anomaly, and probably still lags behind the Northeast.

And the "Northeast" is not homogeneous. either. What you find in Trump country east coast is vastly different from what you will find in places like New York City, Boston, and DC.