General forum question - how do you treat Israel wine ?

it to different wine groups, critics and quasi Israeli government groups.

Where in the UK are you? a friend of mine manages the wine selection at a kosher store I believe in manchester.

Hi Elchonon
I'm based in Norwich, on the east coast, the bit that bulges out the the north east of London. Quite a way from Manchester, but I've passed through often when I used to work in Liverpool.
Best of luck with your discussions. It might seem at times an exercise in herding cats, but eventually honest enthusiasm can break down many barriers.
regards
Ian

Im confused, as I did not inherently see Israel kosher wines any different than non.. besides for some laws..

Lets turn it around. How keen would a Jewish person be in buying wines that were certified as being good *because* no Jews were involved in any stage of the process? That when you walked around a winery making this wine you were warned against touching tanks holding this wine because one touch would spoil the wine for non-Jewish people who would not be able to drink it.

I enjoyed visiting Israel, I've drunk Israeli wines and I've drunk Israeli Kosher wines there and at home, but the Kosher seal on a wine is a turn off for me.

Im confused, as I did not inherently see Israel kosher wines any different than non.. besides for some laws..

Lets turn it around. How keen would a Jewish person be in buying wines that were certified as being good *because* no Jews were involved in any stage of the process? That when you walked around a winery making this wine you were warned against touching tanks holding this wine because one touch would spoil the wine for non-Jewish people who would not be able to drink it.

I enjoyed visiting Israel, I've drunk Israeli wines and I've drunk Israeli Kosher wines there and at home, but the Kosher seal on a wine is a turn off for me.

Completely agree with Peter. In fact the issue is not only confined to winery visits, since a non-orthodox Jew cannot serve a (non-mevushal) kosher wine to an Orthodox Jew at the table, effectively precluding a shared dining experience under most circumstances... . The laws of kashrut are a very effective way of creating barriers between people, and no doubt this was an effective way of creating and maintaining a tribal identity in ancient times. One should not be surprised that this is also a barrier for worldwide marketing and acceptance in modern times.

Im confused, as I did not inherently see Israel kosher wines any different than non.. besides for some laws..

Lets turn it around. How keen would a Jewish person be in buying wines that were certified as being good *because* no Jews were involved in any stage of the process? That when you walked around a winery making this wine you were warned against touching tanks holding this wine because one touch would spoil the wine for non-Jewish people who would not be able to drink it.

I enjoyed visiting Israel, I've drunk Israeli wines and I've drunk Israeli Kosher wines there and at home, but the Kosher seal on a wine is a turn off for me.

Peter,
I see what your saying, but its not a racial issue rather religious issue, there are 2 parts of the law actually, the original aspect stems from pegan rituals thus making the wine impure.. further the laws apply equally to a non religious jew..

Tribal identity was one issue back in the day, how relevant it is now is any ones guess, i'll drink wine with any one provided I pour the wine.

I think there is a misconception here perhaps, also as long as jewish law was followed I do not think the grapes matter on who planted them, I know any one can pick the grapes, crushing them is disputed.. the only issues arrive on when it becomes wine and so on

Im confused, as I did not inherently see Israel kosher wines any different than non.. besides for some laws..

Lets turn it around. How keen would a Jewish person be in buying wines that were certified as being good *because* no Jews were involved in any stage of the process? That when you walked around a winery making this wine you were warned against touching tanks holding this wine because one touch would spoil the wine for non-Jewish people who would not be able to drink it.

I enjoyed visiting Israel, I've drunk Israeli wines and I've drunk Israeli Kosher wines there and at home, but the Kosher seal on a wine is a turn off for me.

Completely agree with Peter. In fact the issue is not only confined to winery visits, since a non-orthodox Jew cannot serve a (non-mevushal) kosher wine to an Orthodox Jew at the table, effectively precluding a shared dining experience under most circumstances... . The laws of kashrut are a very effective way of creating barriers between people, and no doubt this was an effective way of creating and maintaining a tribal identity in ancient times. One should not be surprised that this is also a barrier for worldwide marketing and acceptance in modern times.

I sell phones, I went to CRIA the wireless show in new orleans, after hours we all went drinking on bourbon street, my brother and I fully visible religious jews drank beer with our non jewish, non religious friends in the business.

Laws are there for a reason, not always defined as a racial issue, merely as a religious precaution, as someone who wasent religious in the teenage years I am both respectful of the laws but generally not bothered..

As religious jews and something we do not hide, we refrained from other activity's *ahem* even though we arent married LOL

My goal in life is to be a good person, make the world a better place.. not to fight religious laws, like I said, I have and will drink wine with any one regardless of race or religion, provided the wine is kosher and I pour it

since a non-orthodox Jew cannot serve a (non-mevushal) kosher wine to an Orthodox Jew at the table, effectively precluding a shared dining experience under most circumstances

Not true, as the Jewish person you are with can open and pour the wine,allowing the shared dining experience (assuming kosher food as well- otherwise, it's just a shared drinking experience). I don't find your nor Peter May's arguments compelling. On the other hand, there are plenty of compelling arguments to be had. For one, the wines don't consistently approach the qpr of other wines in their price ranges. There are plenty of exceptions, but as a general statement, it's true. For another, they are not generally available--certainly the best are not generally available, so why even worry about them as a group. They are typically out of sight, therefore out of mind. Another argument would be not wishing to take a chance, given the historical bad reviews that kosher wines have garnered.

At a tasting, however, if one were offered an unfamiliar kosher wine, would one be hesitant to try it, knowing that he could simply pour it out and spit if he did not enjoy it? My personal view is that anyone doing so would be an idiot if the reason for acting in that manner were simply because his feelings were hurt due to nonJews not being allowed to handle and manipulate the product (note that there could be what I consider more valid reasons for choosing not to taste the wine, including having other wines or wineries of higher priority which the taster wishes to taste, and not having the time nor palate to do both).

All wineries all have the same rules. Those authorized to do so may handle and manipulate the wine, those unauthorized to do so may not. No winemaker wants an unauthorized person to open or close a valve or turn on or off a pump, because it might result in loss of product or loss of equipment. Typically, only employees may do so, and even then, typically only winemaking staff. A winery's criteria for choosing its employees is its own business, as long as it is legal.

Im confused, as I did not inherently see Israel kosher wines any different than non.. besides for some laws..

Lets turn it around. How keen would a Jewish person be in buying wines that were certified as being good *because* no Jews were involved in any stage of the process? That when you walked around a winery making this wine you were warned against touching tanks holding this wine because one touch would spoil the wine for non-Jewish people who would not be able to drink it.

I enjoyed visiting Israel, I've drunk Israeli wines and I've drunk Israeli Kosher wines there and at home, but the Kosher seal on a wine is a turn off for me.

Peter,
Since you brought up a point of view I hadent previously heard, i'd like to address this more.

Keeping in mind that it was religious intolerance by muslims that destroyed Israel's native vines (historical documents show that in the temple times, the avg judean drank 2 litres of wine a day!!!!!!!)

But your view actually brings forth a point I argue against, that which Israel wines (a region) is lumped with kosher ( a specialty)

For me, religious is not about which parts I agree with or which suit my logic, its about the letter of the law and what I believe comes from God, trust me, if I was going to pick and choose, rather than be a hypocrite, i'd dump it all..

Elchonon, it is natural that people are going to lump Israeli wines and kosher wines together, even though half of the Israelis are totally secular and want nothing to do with kashrus, due to the fact that it is the kosher wines that are most visible on the wine scene. Even wineries who claimed they would not, eventually migrated to kosher production, due to the demands of their export marketing. In Israel, even secular Israelis drink kosher wine because not doing so would be limiting, and the kosher wines are often among the most successful in terms of quality. In the end, people outside of Israel are going to try Israeli wines, or even individual kosher wines because they are compelling in terms of distinctiveness, quality or value. So far, they typically have not been, though there have been exceptions. As a California winery, GAN EDEN had considerable, though not commanding success in gaining access to the general marketplace, largely but not exclusively due to my 1986 Cab, which appeared early in the life of the winery (GAN EDEN was established in 1985, in the middle of a quality revolution among California wineries).

And what if there is inertia against Israeli or kosher wines because of anti-Semitism? Anti-rational sentiment cannot be easily combatted. The best thing Israeli or kosher producers can do is to make wines that are an experience to drink, that people will feel that they are "missing out" by not drinking, combatting ingrained feelings with alternate compelling feelings rather than with what people driven by rationality would believe is compelling rationality. Quality wines are not necessarily distinctive enough to qualify as an experience.

For an atheist like me, religious precepts surrounding food and drink are mostly irrational as well as being discriminatory and a restraint on trade. However, that does not stop me from drinking kosher wine and eating kosher or halal food, if the character is distinctive, the quality good and the price fair.

Next time I see an Israeli wine on sale, I'll give it a whirl and report back.

Tim, the current kosher laws pertaining to wine are not irrational at all. Rather, they were ratified by the rabbis for the sake of preservation of the Jewish people, at a time when there was widespread intermarriage and assimilation. One might argue that the need to preserve the Jewish people is irrational, and that would be as true as the need to preserve any other ethnic group. However, the laws are indeed designed to curb rampant socializing between Jews and nonJews that could contribute to assimilation and intermarriage. They were patterned after biblical laws pertaining to prohibiting wine used for wine libations to idolatry from being used by the Jewish people, as anything used for idolatry would have been, and would still be, prohibited for use by Jews. However, nonJews have long since ceased, in general, from being classified as idol worshippers (although there are places in the world where widespread idolatrous practice is still rampant). Other rabbinically enacted prohibitions from the same period, specifically to preclude thoughtless socializing, include that against eating food cooked or baked by nonJews, or cheese produced by nonJews. All of the food groups, in other words, whether the ingredients are kosher or not, whether the people are nice or not. Again, the question of whether the Jewish people is something that should be preserved is open to question, but obviously, these rabbis felt that it should, and they had the stature at that time to enact laws to that effect, and those same rabbis continue to have the stature at present, so that the laws have a continuity over the generations, at least for those Jews who believe in the value of Jewish continuity, including that of the religion. Of course, there are plenty of Jews who do not accept the mandates of the religion, and who will drink, buy and serve nonkosher wine, nonkosher cheese, and food cooked or baked by nonJews. The Jewish community is not monolithic.

Thanks, Craig, for that interesting historical rationale of kosher practices. I afraid that a rationale like that which is so tightly ethnocentric and exclusive is not very attractive from my point of view, which values openness to cultural and ethnic diversity. However, please don't think that I have any sympathy for anti-semitism. I am deeply grateful for the contribution of countless Jewish people to the arts, sciences and professions. Furthermore, part of my disaffection from religion stems from shame that people who, like me, were originally brought up as Christians were responsible for the holocaust.

Returning to wine and food, kosher versus non-kosher is not an issue for me. Only character and quality count.

Tim, I can assure you I meant no implication of anti-Semitism. It would be an interesting world if there were no ethnic or cultural differences, possibly a more peaceful world, but one lacking flavor. Just look at the differences between the cultures of France and Italy, and the differences in wine styles, even when dealing with the same varieties. The differences in wines are a direct result of the attitudes and cultures of each location, at least as much as the terroir. Look at the way food has developed in different regions. The ethnic and cultural diversity is what breeds those differences in food, at least as much as the terrain and climate. Openness allows you to experience these foreign cuisines and wines, but the ethnocentricity of the indigenous populations promoted the development of these things in the first place. Both openness and ethnocentricity therefore have an importance. Likewise, the historic Jewish population pioneered openness, evidenced by the rise in Dutch mercantilism due to the presence of Jewish traders. Yet, in certain aspects, the Jewish culture is highly ethnocentric, one of which is the highly ingrained negative feeling towards intermarriage- not necessarily a negative feeling towards the individuals who would marry the Jew. My Cantonese wife was Jewish when I married her, yet I would never have considered marrying the same person when she not been Jewish, several months earlier, though we were involved together at that time. That's not lack of openness, that's controlled openness.

Tim, I respect your views, and we differ. Getting back to Israeli wine, though I am not Israeli, I would like to see a greater openness to it by the general world population. Just as I would like to see greater openness to the wines of the Caucasus and the Balkans. How can the breeds be improved without criticism and critique and proper culling?

The course of this discussion has gone way off. As I mentioned that are 2 issues at play, Craig got a bit too in to the jewish law nuances not particularly relevant..

Yayin nesech - Tainted wine... this prohibition stems from pagan concerns of the wine being used for idolatry.. has absolutely nothing to do with jewish or not and would apply just as equally to a jewish pagan..

Yayin Stam - is wine that was touched or moved by a non jew dates from the times when jewish men were seduced by moabite and midyanite women.

These laws are thousands of years old and we respect them.. I fail to see how one can be offended.. I'll drink beer produced by, served by and with non jews..

[Jenise]

Just want to say to everyone who participated how much I've enjoyed this thread; learned a great deal about Jewish traditions that I never knew the reasons for--all of my Jewish friends have been non-observant on those matters.

Living in NYC there are plenty of Israeli wines available to me, most all that I have seen are kosher. Over the years they have been discussed and reviewed occasionally in the press, specifically in the NY Times, and recommended. I tried a number of the recommended wines a few years ago and while they were certainly pleasant, I did not find them compelling in any way. I think it is relevant that the kosher aspect of a kosher wine is a value feature to those who will only drink kosher wine, because of this, kosher wine has a captive market and in a meaningful sense doesn't necessarily have to compete with non kosher wine.

Some years ago I used to enjoy listening to Arthur Schwartz when he had a food show on a NY radio station. He used to review restaurants and had highly praised a kosher restaurant in Great Neck NY at one point. Being a fan, I made reservations there for about 12 family members to celebrate my daughters birthday. The food was good but in the larger universe of all restaurants, not just kosher restaurants, I found it unimpressive. At the time I had the same thought. If I were restricted to only kosher restaurants I felt I might have been impressed, but having all restaurants available to me as a basis of comparison I found the place mediocre. This restaurant really only had to compete with other kosher restaurants, and that I feel, doesn't really encourage excellence in the larger market.

Living in NYC there are plenty of Israeli wines available to me, most all that I have seen are kosher. Over the years they have been discussed and reviewed occasionally in the press, specifically in the NY Times, and recommended. I tried a number of the recommended wines a few years ago and while they were certainly pleasant, I did not find them compelling in any way. I think it is relevant that the kosher aspect of a kosher wine is a value feature to those who will only drink kosher wine, because of this, kosher wine has a captive market and in a meaningful sense doesn't necessarily have to compete with non kosher wine.

Some years ago I used to enjoy listening to Arthur Schwartz when he had a food show on a NY radio station. He used to review restaurants and had highly praised a kosher restaurant in Great Neck NY at one point. Being a fan, I made reservations there for about 12 family members to celebrate my daughters birthday. The food was good but in the larger universe of all restaurants, not just kosher restaurants, I found it unimpressive. At the time I had the same thought. If I were restricted to only kosher restaurants I felt I might have been impressed, but having all restaurants available to me as a basis of comparison I found the place mediocre. This restaurant really only had to compete with other kosher restaurants, and that I feel, doesn't really encourage excellence in the larger market.

How much difference are there in prices of kosher vs non kosher wine ? there are lots of great Israel wines, the catch is the good ones tend to be more expensive

Elchonon, I think what Tom is saying is that your definition of "great" and his definition may differ, because perception is based upon the population of wines tasted, and the population of Israeli wines over the years vs. the population of general market wines from universally acknowledged "great" winemaking regions, over a greater number of years, might yield differences in tasted wine populations amounting to orders of magnitude of difference. "Great" Israeli winemaking really began in 1983, with Yarden's first vintage (and yes, I acknowledge some creditable Carmel Reserve Cabs from before that time, but their quality was not up to Yarden's first Cabs, which appeared somewhat later than 1983). Whereas great wines had been produced in some European vineyards for decades or even centuries, many examples of which are even now still available for tasting. A person with an interest in wine, in the general and unencumbered market, may have tasted multiple examples of wines generally deemed to be "great" by vast populations of tasters, and might have vast populations of such wines in his memory. Such a person might find the best of Israeli wines to be of quality, yet not "great", because not compelling. Your "great" might be to them "very good". I have tasted many Israeli wines, and have not yet tasted one I would consider "great". I have not tasted any nonkosher ones.