So Who Expresses Terroir Most Purely In Calif???

[David M. Bueker]

Going back to my point above, about trying say three different wines from the same plot (same vintage) from three different producers...that would be of real interest!

I've done that sort fo tasting on multiple occasions. The first time was with kabinetts from the Erdener Treppchen (Loosen, Meulenhof, Christoffel) from teh 1998 vintage. Subsequently I have done similar experiments with Zinfandels from the Monte Rosso vineyard, more Riesling comparisons than I can count (e.g. Wehlener Sonnenuhr, Piesporter Goldtropfchen, Scharzhofberger, etc) and several Burgundy vineyards. It's an instructive exercise.

Going back to my point above, about trying say three different wines from the same plot (same vintage) from three different producers...that would be of real interest!

...more Riesling comparisons than I can count (e.g. Wehlener Sonnenuhr, Piesporter Goldtropfchen, Scharzhofberger, etc) and several Burgundy vineyards. It's an instructive exercise.

It is instructive, although as mentioned above (by Fredrik I believe) this question is almost impossible to really pin down, because as we all know, these vineyards are quite heterogeneous internally and the plots for each winemaker have different terroir. One could get at winemaking with a batch of grapes from one plot that were then distributed to different winemakers. But of course that couldn't capture variation in stylistic approaches to vineyard work.

At the end of the day, this stuff is complicated.

But also simply delicious.

Rahsaan, you nailed it pretty good....different terroir! Guess it is rather complicated though, different yields lalala. Would be fun though!

I don't think anyone says that ALL vineyard and winemaking practices are part of terroir. It is only the practices that are TRADITIONAL in the region... bush vines and carbonic maceration in Beaujolais, but not in Bordeaux

Even with quite a broad definition of terroir, surely carbonic maceration cannot be part of it?! Typicity would be a more appropriate term, I think, but not terroir (as CM has absolutely nothing intrinsically to do with site).

I was really thinking of the process used in most of the crus, sometimes called semi-carbonic maceration, rather than the shallow CO2-filled tanks. As that is the traditional method in Beaujolais it would seem to me to come quite firmly under some people's definition of terroir. In fact it is very much in line with the idea of minimal intervention, which is supposed to promote terroir - you don't bother crushing and destemming

But my personal view is the same as yours.

[David M. Bueker]

Going back to my point above, about trying say three different wines from the same plot (same vintage) from three different producers...that would be of real interest!

...more Riesling comparisons than I can count (e.g. Wehlener Sonnenuhr, Piesporter Goldtropfchen, Scharzhofberger, etc) and several Burgundy vineyards. It's an instructive exercise.

It is instructive, although as mentioned above (by Fredrik I believe) this question is almost impossible to really pin down, because as we all know, these vineyards are quite heterogeneous internally and the plots for each winemaker have different terroir. One could get at winemaking with a batch of grapes from one plot that were then distributed to different winemakers. But of course that couldn't capture variation in stylistic approaches to vineyard work.

At the end of the day, this stuff is complicated.

Well sure, and I agree that many vineyards are just too big to get more than a general sense (Clos Vougeot anyone?!), but if we're going to just throw out the concept of tasting different wines to try and parse out the terroir then we might as well throw out the concept of terroir.

Well sure, and I agree that many vineyards are just too big to get more than a general sense (Clos Vougeot anyone?!), but if we're going to just throw out the concept of tasting different wines to try and parse out the terroir then we might as well throw out the concept of terroir.

Oh, tasting is key. But I'm just saying that to get into all the nuances of terroir one has to taste a mind-boggling amount of wines from various parcels within vineyards, producers, vintages, etc.

Luckily, the stuff is delicious.

[David M. Bueker]

I'm just saying that to get into all the nuances of terroir one has to taste a mind-boggling amount of wines from various parcels within vineyards, producers, vintages, etc.

Well AMEN to that!

Tom, thanks for your thoughts - it is interesting to read of your perspective on the regional characteristics.

I think separating terroir characteristics from winemaking style or regional typicity is more difficult than many suggest. Without a more objective approach to tasting (i.e., at least single-blind) it's easy to delude oneself. As Rahsaan says, it takes a LOT of experience, and even then it's fairly easy for people to get it wrong.

trying say three different wines from the same plot (same vintage) from three different producers...that would be of real interest!

Absolutely, though (again) I think it would be most objective/telling doing it blind (granted, one might need to be familiar with the wines/vineyards/producer/vintages prior to the blind tasting).

Steve, I appreciate where you were coming from. Traditional methods (both in viticulture and viniculture) certainly complicate the issue of identifying terroir-derived character. Actually, I think that's because they go hand in hand (terroir and viniculture/viticulture) - we can never completely separate terroir-derived character from viticulture and viniculture, because the making of wine is never devoid of human interaction.

Steve, I appreciate where you were coming from. Traditional methods (both in viticulture and viniculture) certainly complicate the issue of identifying terroir-derived character. Actually, I think that's because they go hand in hand (terroir and viniculture/viticulture) - we can never completely separate terroir-derived character from viticulture and viniculture, because the making of wine is never devoid of human interaction.

Indeed, not without resorting to careful experiments at least. Man's influence is present even in the most narrowly defined sense of terroir. For example... clearing natural vegetation to plant vines (of course that is a precondition for winemaking, but when it is done over a large area it changes the meso climate), terracing, creating nice smooth slopes using machinery and even explosives (yup, that thappened on the Cote d'Or not so long ago), drainage, and constant moving of soil from the bottom to the top of slopes.

I would think that changing the mesoclimate or microclimate would be fairly easily. Things like “removing” the “natural” vegetation, canopy management of the vines; having a wind machine strategically location within the vineyard could easily alter the mesoclimate or microclimate. The mesoclimate or microclimate of a vineyard without man interfering could vary seasonally, daily, and even hourly. Just by domesticating the vine and planting them in a somewhat "well designed" or "organized" way, man is altering his landscape.

Salute

Is any “finished” wine “a true or pure expression or reflection of terroir”?
Sites where grapes can grow, survive and thrive will posses terroir. As Brain pointed out the grape berries themselves should “express or reflect that given terroir”. (I’ll go one step further; the grape juice (normally it only takes a physical change) should also “express or reflect that given terroir”). The genetic make-up of the different grape varieties and, the “terroir” of a given site will dictate the “range” or “parameters” of things like how much water is in the berries, amount of sugar, amount of acid, amount of tannins, amount of all soluble solids etc.
The conversion of grape juice into wine requires a chemical change (even if man does not participate). The “grape juice medium” (mainly water, sugars, acids, tannins and soluble solids) during fermentation is converted into a “wine medium” (mainly water, alcohol, acids, tannins, soluble solids and “additional extras” some good and some not so good). Besides the “additional extras”, are the “existing soluble solids” in both the “juice medium” and “wine medium” exactly the same (or do they “behave” the same way)?
Now I think a better question to ask- is how does any “finished” wine become a “pure/true expression/reflection of terroir”?

Salute

Is any “finished” wine “a true or pure expression or reflection of terroir”?
Sites where grapes can grow, survive and thrive will posses terroir. As Brain pointed out the grape berries themselves should “express or reflect that given terroir”. (I’ll go one step further; the grape juice (normally it only takes a physical change) should also “express or reflect that given terroir”). The genetic make-up of the different grape varieties and, the “terroir” of a given site will dictate the “range” or “parameters” of things like how much water is in the berries, amount of sugar, amount of acid, amount of tannins, amount of all soluble solids etc.
The conversion of grape juice into wine requires a chemical change (even if man does not participate). The “grape juice medium” (mainly water, sugars, acids, tannins and soluble solids) during fermentation is converted into a “wine medium” (mainly water, alcohol, acids, tannins, soluble solids and “additional extras” some good and some not so good). Besides the “additional extras”, are the “existing soluble solids” in both the “juice medium” and “wine medium” exactly the same (or do they “behave” the same way)?
Now I think a better question to ask- is how does any “finished” wine become a “pure/true expression/reflection of terroir”?

For a start, Victor, one should probably include the indigenous yeasts in any discussion of terroir. That being said, even inoculated fermentations have been shown to proceed through several different yeast strains, but surely using the yeasts present in the winery should better reflect terroir than using purchased yeasts. I have no idea what a "pure" or "true" expression of terroir might be, but certain wines speak to me of where they come from more than others do.

Mark Lipton

You’re absolutely correct Mark. The ancient vintners (even before they knew that it was yeast and bacteria responsible for carrying out alcoholic fermentation) they unknowingly or unintentionally “built up” those “desirable or favorable” populations of “wine yeast”.

Salute