Poll: What is your favorite German wine region?

[David M. Bueker]

I used to be more of a Pfalz fan than I am now. Losing access to Lingenfelder hurt.

Strange. There is very little buzz about Lingenfelder in the Pfalz at all. They are completely off the radar -I never see the wines for sale.

Cheers,
Bill

That's because Lingenfelder is not a dry wine specialist. I mourn the loss of access to his Scheurebe more than anything else.

What is your favorite German wine region and why? Variety of terroir, wine styles, varieties planted, beauty, history, or any other reasons are all game.

Thanks and Cheers,
Bill

I don't think you've given us your answer Bill!

Perfect timing for this question. I was just reading up on Germany from The Wine Bible. However, the book was written in 2001 so the information is over ten years old. How much has Germany changed since early 2000? I ask because she lumps Nahe with other wine regions (Ahr, Baden, Franken, Mittlerhein) and basically states they make quaffing wines. Many of the responses have Nahe at the top of the list so I'm wondering how much has changed over the last decade (or was she off on her original statement).

I wouldn't put much stock in that statement (who is the author?).

Nahe had some outstanding growers before 2000. Donnhoff produced some outstanding wines even then, and other estates like Schonleber and Schlossgut Diel made some fine stuff too (some of the '98 Diels I've been recently opening have been superb).

The quality in the region's gotten even better now - there are some great up and coming producers (Schneider, Kruger-Rumpf) making excellent wines at very good value prices, Schafer-Frohlich and Schonleber are making outstanding ranges of wine from dry through sweet and Donnhoff is still Donnhoff and freaking amazing.

Karen MacNeil is author. Just pulled it down. She did chapters on MSR, Rheingau, Pfalz, and Rheinhessen, then a chapter on regions of note (inc. Nahe). Nahe gets half a page, but I think she is more complimentary than David implies. "both decent nondescript wines and wines that can be exceptionally beautiful and complex." "Nahe wines have an essential vividness and gracefulness; they can be exquisitely intense and nearly explosive- all at the same time. Theirs is a fiery elegance." Several sentences praising Donnhoff and Hehner-Kiltz, she also recommends Crusius, Kruger-Rumpf, Anheuser, Diel, and the state domaine.
I think you might argue with her not giving it a chapter, but what she says isn't so bad at all.

Off topic, this is a decent book for facts. I think when it came out Robin and I both had same reaction- most disconcerting part is she gives "wines to know" from each region, with some quasi-tasting notes, which without vintage are real generalizations that might not serve the newbie well.

[David M. Bueker]

Karen MacNeil is author. Just pulled it down. She did chapters on MSR, Rheingau, Pfalz, and Rheinhessen, then a chapter on regions of note (inc. Nahe). Nahe gets half a page, but I think she is more complimentary than David implies. "both decent nondescript wines and wines that can be exceptionally beautiful and complex." "Nahe wines have an essential vividness and gracefulness; they can be exquisitely intense and nearly explosive- all at the same time. Theirs is a fiery elegance." Several sentences praising Donnhoff and Hehner-Kiltz, she also recommends Crusius, Kruger-Rumpf, Anheuser, Diel, and the state domaine.
I think you might argue with her not giving it a chapter, but what she says isn't so bad at all.

Of course given the publicaiton date her info on producers was still 10 years out of date. The state domaine fell off the radar in the late '80s, as did Anheuser. Who the heck is Hehner-Kiltz??? Even John Trombley has never mentioned them.

3 outta 7 on producers... not a great average outside baseball.

There's talk about the state Domaine making a comeback of sorts now - Tim Frohlich's brother is apparently at the helm of the estate now, so it'll be nice to have another source for very good wine in Nahe. Had the 01 Niederhauser Hermannsberg Riesling BA from the State domaine last winter which was lovely.

Nahe's certainly one of my favourite regions in the wine world to follow with Donnhoff, Schonleber and Schafer-Frohlich making some superb wines (with Schneider, Diel and Kruger-Rumpf on their heels) and as David said, there's quality across all styles including trockens - Donnhoff's Hermannshohle and Dellchen GGs, Frohlich's Felseneck and Schonleber's Halenberg are among the best dry Rieslings out there.

But with Egon Muller, Willi Schaefer, Grunhaus, Selbach and Prum in the MSR, the Mosel still gets my vote.

Out of curiosity - do the others who voted for Mosel have any preferences within the subregions that Bill outlined?

Obermosel is roughly between Perl (at which point France, Luxembourg, and Germany share a border) and the Saar/Mosel confluence
Mittelmosel is the area from Longuich just north of trier and the Ruwer -Longuich downstream through all of the famous vineyards to about Traben-Trarbach or Pünderich
Untermosel (or Terrassenmosel) is Zell all the way downstream to Koblenz
Saar
Ruwer

I used to be more of a Pfalz fan than I am now. Losing access to Lingenfelder hurt.

Strange. There is very little buzz about Lingenfelder in the Pfalz at all. They are completely off the radar -I never see the wines for sale.

Cheers,
Bill

I mourn the loss of access to his Scheurebe more than anything else.

And Scheurebe is declining in popularity if anything -which is a shameful disgrace -Perhaps You, Salil and I should put out a WLDG Scheurebe. I could certainly get a good price on grapes!

But Lingenfelder is also reasonably well-known for Pinot Noir (or was). Many in the field have surpassed him it seems. But I'm curious about the 2010s.

Enough! I'm gonna go hunt some Lingenfelder down.

Cheers,
Bill

What is your favorite German wine region and why? Variety of terroir, wine styles, varieties planted, beauty, history, or any other reasons are all game.

Thanks and Cheers,
Bill

I don't think you've given us your answer Bill!

Yeah, I was trying to refrain from choosing as I have really become a fan of the best wines from every region (I was even in Saale-Unstrut last spring, but I really need to explore more wines of that region and also those of Sachsen, both of which had what many people consider to be their best vintages in modern history in 2010.) I love 'em all with special places in my heart for the Hessische Bergstraße, the Mittelrhein, and Württemberg (which I think may become the next region to watch.)

In the end, I voted with the Rheingau (which may very well get me booted out of the Pfalz!)
The greatest estates there are still among the top in Germany (Leitz, Weil, Breuer, Spreitzer, Künstler) and the greatest collection of vineyards in the country all can be found between Lorch and Hochheim -certainly the quality of terroir is unmatched. Seething with potential and rich in history, I love it perhaps not for what it is, but what it was and could be again.

But the combination of Pfälzer Riesling, Spätburgunder, Weißburgunder, Muskateller, Scheurebe, Rieslaner and Gewürztraminer is hard to beat too.

I dunno.

Cheers,
Bill

3 outta 7 on producers... not a great average outside baseball.

There's talk about the state Domaine making a comeback of sorts now - Tim Frohlich's brother is apparently at the helm of the estate now, so it'll be nice to have another source for very good wine in Nahe. Had the 01 Niederhauser Hermannsberg Riesling BA from the State domaine last winter which was lovely.

Nahe's certainly one of my favourite regions in the wine world to follow with Donnhoff, Schonleber and Schafer-Frohlich making some superb wines (with Schneider, Diel and Kruger-Rumpf on their heels) and as David said, there's quality across all styles including trockens - Donnhoff's Hermannshohle and Dellchen GGs, Frohlich's Felseneck and Schonleber's Halenberg are among the best dry Rieslings out there.

But with Egon Muller, Willi Schaefer, Grunhaus, Selbach and Prum in the MSR, the Mosel still gets my vote.

Out of curiosity - do the others who voted for Mosel have any preferences within the subregions that Bill outlined?

Obermosel is roughly between Perl (at which point France, Luxembourg, and Germany share a border) and the Saar/Mosel confluence
Mittelmosel is the area from Longuich just north of trier and the Ruwer -Longuich downstream through all of the famous vineyards to about Traben-Trarbach or Pünderich
Untermosel (or Terrassenmosel) is Zell all the way downstream to Koblenz
Saar
Ruwer

For me, it would be hard to argue with the Mittelmosel as being anything but the tenderloin of the region. Look at all of the amazing estates and vineyards between Brauneberg and Erden alone.
The Saar might produce the most singular wine, but outside of four or five estates and 5-6 vineyards there isn't much to talk about.
The same can be said of the Ruwer on an even smaller scale.
The Untermosel has a couple of spectacular sites in the Uhlen and Calmont -both breathtaking vineyards in that they are basically vertical slate walls with vines growing out of them and the region is beautiful in a more rugged, wilder sense than the carefully manicured vineyard scenes of the Mittelmosel. Cochem is cool, but the region is too few and far between quality-wise to merit serious comparison.
The Obermosel has the unfortunate situation of being eclusively on the south and eastern side of the river, giving it with few exceptions north and western-facing vineyards. Global warming is going to have to really make an impact before the Obermosel starts producing great wines with regularity.

Cheers,
Bill

I go back and forth among the Mosel, Saar, and Ruwer. At their best, I probably like the raciness of Saar rieslings. But the Mosel is a touch more consistent across vintages. And the Ruwer is so small that it's tough to separate out my love for the region and my love for Grunhaus.

The Nahe, the Rhein, the Pfalz and other parts south are a bit too big and lose that delicate filigree of riesling that I love so much from the Mosel.

And needless to say that although I drink all the other wines when in Germany, the rieslings are still my main focus/love.

Ah, but under the modern German nomenclature, the "Mosel" now includes the Saar and the Ruwer, Rahsaan.

I know it doesn't to old fogies like me and traditionalist budding fogies like you. I suspect we will always differentiate between the Mosel, the Saar and the Ruwer as distinctive zones. But the line has been blurred---and blurred by the Germans, I suppose in their desire to make things less complicated for newbies. I prefer the distinction to the blurring, of course. No slouch on many wonderful Mosel wines, but the standout properties of the Saar and the Ruwer are entirely different creatures, and I hope always will be.

I go back and forth among the Mosel, Saar, and Ruwer. At their best, I probably like the raciness of Saar rieslings. But the Mosel is a touch more consistent across vintages. And the Ruwer is so small that it's tough to separate out my love for the region and my love for Grunhaus.

The Nahe, the Rhein, the Pfalz and other parts south are a bit too big and lose that delicate filigree of riesling that I love so much from the Mosel.

And needless to say that although I drink all the other wines when in Germany, the rieslings are still my main focus/love.

Ah, but under the modern German nomenclature, the "Mosel" now includes the Saar and the Ruwer, Rahsaan.

I know it doesn't to old fogies like me and traditionalist budding fogies like you. I suspect we will always differentiate between the Mosel, the Saar and the Ruwer as distinctive zones. But the line has been blurred---and blurred by the Germans, I suppose in their desire to make things less complicated for newbies. I prefer the distinction to the blurring, of course. No slouch on many wonderful Mosel wines, but the standout properties of the Saar and the Ruwer are entirely different creatures, and I hope always will be.

Hoke,

Really all they did was drop the -Saar-Ruwer in Mosel-Saar-Ruwer off the label. The labels never did state merely 'Ruwer' or 'Saar' on their own.
The distinction remains legally in the different Bereiche, but the authorities (rightly I think) chose to simplify the labeling.
There are 13 Weinbaugebiete options instead of 39 Bereiche. How many consumers do you know that want to learn all 39 or Hyphenated combinations of them? Hell, how many even know all 13 wine regions? It is too much to ask of even the most knowledgeable consumer.

Cheers,
Bill

[David M. Bueker]

Bill,

You are falling into the "German wine is too complicated" trap. I think you've been in the Pfalz sun too long.

Consumers have no issue with Gevrey Chambertin (and all its vineyards), Chambolle Musigny (and all its vineyards), Morey St Denis, Nuits St Georges, Vosne Romanee (not to mention Flagey-Echezeaux), Volnay, Pommard, Beuane, Marsannay, Aloxe Corton, Fixin and Savigny Les Beaune and I am not done yet. So why do we expect so little of consumers of German wine?

Removing Saar-Ruwer from a German wine label is not the key to greater consumer acceptance. Heck it's not even one of many keys. We are constantly reminded by actual consumers that they don't know what to expect when they open a bottle of German Riesling (feel free to substitute Alsatian Riesling is these statements by the way). They buy a kabinett and get somehting that could and sometimes should be sold as auslese. They buy a grand cru type dry wine from the Rheingau and get something halbtroken (those tricky extra couple of grams of RS in the Rheingau law). They see Feinherb and have no idea what the heck that even means. Sounds like pot to me...

I once spent a couple of hours with Nik Weis (St. Urbans Hof) debating the flaws in the German wine law. One thing we completely agreed on was that the pradikats need not just lower limits, but upper limits as well, so that consumers stand a chance of buying what they expect.

Consumers have no issue with Gevrey Chambertin (and all its vineyards), Chambolle Musigny (and all its vineyards), Morey St Denis, Nuits St Georges, Vosne Romanee (not to mention Flagey-Echezeaux), Volnay, Pommard, Beuane, Marsannay, Aloxe Corton, Fixin and Savigny Les Beaune and I am not done yet..

Not sure Burgundy is the right example here. I thought the majority of consumers did have problems understanding Burgundy's complexity. Hence the move to put 'Pinot Noir' and 'Chardonnay' on some of the lower level examples.

But, for your other point about setting upper limits to make the pradikat system more predictable, I agree that would help.

Ours was the sole vote for Rheinhessen, and it was mostly because out of nostalgia. When we lived over there, Oppenheim was the nearest "wine town" to us, and we got to know a wonderful family of winemakers there. Unfortunately they are no longer in business, and that is not supprising. The old couple (in circa 1966-68) had only one child a son who was studying to become a doctor. I'm sure once he graduated and his parents died, he sold off the business, which is understandable.

[David M. Bueker]

Consumers have no issue with Gevrey Chambertin (and all its vineyards), Chambolle Musigny (and all its vineyards), Morey St Denis, Nuits St Georges, Vosne Romanee (not to mention Flagey-Echezeaux), Volnay, Pommard, Beuane, Marsannay, Aloxe Corton, Fixin and Savigny Les Beaune and I am not done yet..

Not sure Burgundy is the right example here. I thought the majority of consumers did have problems understanding Burgundy's complexity. Hence the move to put 'Pinot Noir' and 'Chardonnay' on some of the lower level examples.

Ok, let's try Napa Valley and its AVAs - Atlas Peak, Calistoga, Diamond Mountain, Howell Mountain, Los Carneros, Mount Veeder, Oak Knoll, Oakville, Rutherford, St. Helena, Spring Mountain, Stags Leap, Yountville and more...(notice I stopped at 13 - there's actually 15)

Why do we accept the canard that German wine is so complicated when virtually every other region in the world has the same level of complexity? Are people just afraid of umlauts, or is it the residual sugar thing that people can't get their heads around, thus they use the "too complicated" as a dodge?

Why do we accept the canard that German wine is so complicated when virtually every other region in the world has the same level of complexity?

I don't know about that. One of the reasons we love it is because of its complexities/intricacies.

Not every region has the same highly-developed vineyard culture, with all of the hierarchies and differences that implies. But then when you layer the pradikat system (plus the ****, Fuders, Auction wine, AP numbers, and Gold Kapsels) you have a lot more different wines even from the same producer and the same vineyard than in any other region I can think of. And then add in the vintage variation (plus the foreign language aspect) and I can see how it becomes confusing to the casual consumer.

Sure American wineries have vineyards and 'cuvees', and perhaps they also work with more grapes than most German wineries. But then they have the home-team language working for them.

But I do think that upper-bound idea would do a lot to cement a better picture of the pradikat and improve predictability in the bottle.

Bill,

You are falling into the "German wine is too complicated" trap. I think you've been in the Pfalz sun too long.

Consumers have no issue with Gevrey Chambertin (and all its vineyards), Chambolle Musigny (and all its vineyards), Morey St Denis, Nuits St Georges, Vosne Romanee (not to mention Flagey-Echezeaux), Volnay, Pommard, Beuane, Marsannay, Aloxe Corton, Fixin and Savigny Les Beaune and I am not done yet. So why do we expect so little of consumers of German wine?

No, perhaps not, but that example is not apples to apples as it pertains to this discussion. If the BIVB allowed a label to say ‘Burgundy-Côte de Beaune-Côte Chalonnaise’ there might be some confusion as to where it came from. But yes I agree that dropping the ‘–Saar-Ruwer’ isn’t really a ground-moving change.

I’m fine with precise wording describing the region, village and vineyard for both countries. I’d be totally fine with making a distinction between Mosel and Saar and Ruwer on the label, but I think that some customers might not realize that the Saar and Ruwer are tributaries of the Mosel and hence share a kinship with Mosel wines stylistically. I’m suggesting that perhaps sales in some export markets might drop off a bit for Ruwer and Saar wines if they were left to their own name recognition without Brand Mosel attached (the Brand Mosel that we’ve, albeit completely unscientifically and from a miniscule sampling, established as being the favourite German wine region of almost 8 out of 10 WLDGers –admittedly a more savvy group of wine consumer than most.)

I once spent a couple of hours with Nik Weis (St. Urbans Hof) debating the flaws in the German wine law. One thing we completely agreed on was that the pradikats need not just lower limits, but upper limits as well, so that consumers stand a chance of buying what they expect.

The Prädikat system doesn’t need boundaries, it needs to go away. If not for the Mosel, it would be totally useless anyway. There, it remains as an economic necessity in that if you only have 2 or 3 ha of Riesling, how do you make wine for 3 or more different price-points? By spreading out production within your parcels into different Prädikats. It is archaic and obsolete in the rest of the country.

Vineyard classification is a far better indicator for taste profile (especially when dealing with primarily dry wines) –it already happens behind the scenes anyway as many producers use vineyard x for Kabinett, vineyard y for Spätlese and label wines accordingly in the fine print to comply. Outside of the Mosel and maybe the Nahe, you don’t often see many prädikats being produced from the same vineyard (ok, maybe a BA or TBA in some cases.) It is simply too costly to do multiple selections. Instead, I like the model of Estate wine, Village wine, and Single Vineyard for sites of special significance. Like in Burgundy, you can follow the producer, vineyard and vintage for cues about how a wine might taste and you have none of the bullshit Oechsle guesswork to deal with. The days of the Prädikat are numbered or should be.

The Qualitätswein category also needs an overhaul. It is a bad joke that 97% of Germanys wines are classified Qualitätswein and up. Chaptalization should be banned (and relegated to Tafelwein or Landwein) and the grape varieties should be limited. I don’t care how good it is. Dornfelder or Müller-Thurgau shouldn’t be allowed to be called Qualitätswein –and those are some of the better examples.

It will be fun to watch what happens.

Cheers,
Bill

Why do we accept the canard that German wine is so complicated when virtually every other region in the world has the same level of complexity?

I don't know about that. One of the reasons we love it is because of its complexities/intricacies.

Not every region has the same highly-developed vineyard culture, with all of the hierarchies and differences that implies. But then when you layer the pradikat system (plus the ****, Fuders, Auction wine, AP numbers, and Gold Kapsels) you have a lot more different wines even from the same producer and the same vineyard than in any other region I can think of. And then add in the vintage variation (plus the foreign language aspect) and I can see how it becomes confusing to the casual consumer.

Sure American wineries have vineyards and 'cuvees', and perhaps they also work with more grapes than most German wineries. But then they have the home-team language working for them.

But I do think that upper-bound idea would do a lot to cement a better picture of the pradikat and improve predictability in the bottle.

And there it is, perfectly laid out. German wine isn't complicated, Mosel wine is.

Cheers,
Bill

Ours was the sole vote for Rheinhessen, and it was mostly because out of nostalgia. When we lived over there, Oppenheim was the nearest "wine town" to us, and we got to know a wonderful family of winemakers there. Unfortunately they are no longer in business, and that is not supprising. The old couple (in circa 1966-68) had only one child a son who was studying to become a doctor. I'm sure once he graduated and his parents died, he sold off the business, which is understandable.

I'm surprised that the Keller and Wittmann fanatics out there didn't throw a vote or two to the Rheinhessen. Lucky you, Oppenheim is a gem of a town.
The Heir who leaves to persue a more lucrative career is a common theme among German wine farmers these days.

Cheers,
Bill

And there it is, perfectly laid out. German wine isn't complicated, Mosel wine is.

Cheers,
Bill

From what I've seen, it can actually be MORE complicated further south because they work with more grapes. Often making riesling, weissburgunder, grauburgunder, spatburgunder, perhaps a few other oddities, all from the same vineyards at various different pradikats (ok QBA, kabinett trocken, spatlese trocken, and sometimes GG, which is not as many as the Mosel, but still).

And there it is, perfectly laid out. German wine isn't complicated, Mosel wine is.

Cheers,
Bill

From what I've seen, it can actually be MORE complicated further south because they work with more grapes. Often making riesling, weissburgunder, grauburgunder, spatburgunder, perhaps a few other oddities, all from the same vineyards at various different pradikats (ok QBA, kabinett, spatlese, which not as many as the Mosel, but still).

More varieties perhaps, but its basically all dry and outside of a couple of exceptions, there aren't multiple prädikats coming from the same vineyard. Most of the VDP estates are following the Estate wine, Village wine, Terroir wine model.

Cheers,
Bill

outside of a couple of exceptions, there aren't multiple prädikats coming from the same vineyard.

Then I must have only landed on the exceptions. Last month when I was in Germany I was either ordering wine or looking to order wine from Franz Keller, Schloss Neuweier, Laible, Bercher, Sasbacher Cooperative, plus a handful of others that aren't coming to mind right now and everyone had a dizzying array of options.

[David M. Bueker]

More varieties perhaps, but its basically all dry and outside of a couple of exceptions, there aren't multiple prädikats coming from the same vineyard. Most of the VDP estates are following the Estate wine, Village wine, Terroir wine model.

All in the name of the holy grail of trocken. Great sites produced great kabinett, spatlese etc in the past. That has been largely thrown away. It's sad, and has taken away much of what makes German Riesling so great.

And Rahsaan - don't talk about loving the intricacies of wine and then taking the stance that German wine is too complicated. The whiplash isn't good for you.

And Rahsaan - don't talk about loving the intricacies of wine and then taking the stance that German wine is too complicated. The whiplash isn't good for you.

But the two points concern different people.

We geeks love the intricacies of wine.

Casual wine consumers want things simpler.

At least that's the logic.