Bordeaux Appellation question

I can't figure out why being discontinous would cause you any pedantic problems with the chateau system in Bordeaux.
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Because it is the definition of the property. My pedantic mind says -- how about if the owner of Ch Margaux wants to expand production, can't buy land so want to buy in grapes.

So he says to a vineyard owner in Margaux, I'll buy half your grapes. So is half that vineyard now Ch Margaux property? Does only purchase of the land make it property, or how about a lease? How about a lease just for the growing season? Or a loan? Where does 'property' end?

As to if the

Chateau follows all the AOC rules and regs

-- that is what my question is asking -- what are the AOC rules

Because it is the definition of the property. My pedantic mind says -- how about if the owner of Ch Margaux wants to expand production, can't buy land so want to buy in grapes.

So he says to a vineyard owner in Margaux, I'll buy half your grapes. So is half that vineyard now Ch Margaux property? Does only purchase of the land make it property, or how about a lease? How about a lease just for the growing season? Or a loan? Where does 'property' end?

Ah, okay. Then the difference here is that all my understanding of the Bordeaux AOC/Chateau rules require that all grapes and wine must come from the owned property of the Chateau, and that leasing or outside purchase is not allowed (the leasing/control clause is in American wine but not in Bordeaux AOC). So to me there is no problem.

Buying half of someone's grapes does not make the source land Margaux's property. That's why Margaux has to go out and buy property in Bordeaux if they want to expand capacity. And in Bordeaux, contiguity of vineyards doesn't mean anything.

This is the way I look at it Peter. I think of the name “Chateaux Margaux” as a “trade- name” or “trademark” (I’m pretty sure the name is “protected”. I don’t believe the people at Chateaux Margaux will be to pleased if someone else starts bottling a wine and label it Chateaux Margaux). If the wine grapes are grown and bottled by the chateau on their “estate” owned land you will see their trademark name “highlighted” or well “pronounced” on the label. But like Hoke and Dale pointed out if the majority of the grapes are outsourced (from land owned by someone else) I don’t believe just the words Chateaux Margaux (which is basically their trademark name for their own “estate grown and bottled” red wine) will be solely highlighted or as pronounced. Instead, like Hoke has stated, you might see a wine labeled with a “fanciful name - du Chateaux Margaux” Now whether or not the wine carries a Margaux AOC will depend if the rules and regulations for Margaux AOC wines was adhered too. (We could always ask ourselves if the so called ”fanciful name- du Chateaux Margaux is better than Chateaux Margaux)? Chateau Margaux Estate consists of 265 acres and like Hoke stated I believe the entire estate lies within the Margaux AOC area, but not all the wine grown and produced by the estate could be labeled Margaux AOC wines.

Salute

Can you provide an example of an actual negociant wine (I mean where outside grapes are included) that is labeled "Mise en bouteille a la Propriete" or "Mis en bouteille au Chateau"? The ones you cite seem to all be from distinct properties (Tour Sieujean is a Cru Bourgeois, La Sirene is the second wine of Giscours, Haut Redon on is listed on Zecchini site as a 55 hectare property with rather extensive info on cepage, soil, etc). The fact that many properties are owned by negociant firms doesn't mean in itself they are using bought grapes (I mean, pretty sure that Moeuix doesn't bring in grapes to Magdelaine- or Petrus).

I just went through about 50 bottles of Burgundy, the estate/producer bottlings all say mise en bouteille a la propriete, au Domaine, or au Chateau (in the case of Mugnier, where actual property name is Chateau de Chambolle Musigny), none of the negociant bottlings say that.

How do you know the wines are estate bottlings? Because the importer says so? I'm saying that without the Negociant/Recoltant information, which I assume you don't see if the wines were bought in America, you can't know for sure. I'm also saying that if the wine has a negociant capsule in France you should assume that the grapes were not produced by the owner of the brand. Hence I would assume Sirene de Giscours is made from grapes or wine bought in by Chateau Giscours. I'd say all those wines I named, with the possible exception of Cantemerle, are made from bought in grapes/wine.

It is possible for a producer to have joint status but the wineries that make estate wine and those that store negociant wine should be separate buildings or at least clearly separated. I know loads of producers who have negociant licences to allow them to sell other people's wine under their own name. My argument is that if a producer has bottled the wine with a negociant capsule in France you can be pretty certain that the grapes don't all come from their vineyards, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

Hi guys,

There seems to be some confusion here.

Other than cooperatives, it is not allowed to buy grapes from vineyards you don't own or lease, use those grapes to make wine in a facility that is not in or adjacent to the vineyard, and call the wine made from such grapes "chateau bottled" or "estate bottled".

Negociants increasingly have mobile bottling lines go to the château because there is a premium placed on estate bottling.
Obviously, they cannot have the wine bottled anywhere else (their cellars, the cellars of another estate they own, or have an arrangement with, etc.) and still put "mis en bouteille au château" on the label.
It is thus even more obvious that it is strictly forbidden to use this wording for wine made from grapes that have been bought from a grower, and fermented and aged elsewhere.

The tax stamp on the capsule is a red herring here. You can find it on bottles of first growths. It is just proof that excise tax has been paid.

Sirène de Giscours is made from grapes grown on the Giscours estate.

The issue of château bottling is a thorny one. There are a number of producers in Pomerol whose production is miniscule, and who have been making the wine either in Saint Emilion or Lalande de Pomerol where they own larger estates.
However, the authorities told them that this was no longer possible, and that they have to build cellars in Pomerol in order to be entitled to put "château bottled" on the label.
Several of the producers, finding this absurd and prohibitively expensive, have refused and court cases are pending.

I visited Le Pin last month. The "cellars" are absolutely tiny, reminding one almost of a doll house! But this is what needs to be done if they want to be authorized to put "mise en bouteilles au château" on the label.

In short, the buying of grapes to make wine, quite common in the New World and other regions of France, is very much the exception in Bordeaux.
In doing so, a Bordeaux winemaker forfeits the right to say that the wine is "estate bottled" - *unless* those grapes are actually fermented, aged, and bottled on the estate.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Call me a geek, but I had to find out the legal rules. I think this is the best we will get. http://www.miseenbouteille.info/753-2002.htm

It looks like "Mis en Bouteille au Domaine/Chateau or Proprieté" has little legal meaning but if the bottler states their status they must tell the truth. Also if they choose to name the company responsible for bottling and that company related to a property then all the grapes must come from that property.

So I would now assume that as Sirene de Giscours says "Mis en Bouteile a la Proprieté par S.E. de Chateau Giscours" the grapes should come from the vineyards belonging to S.E. Chateau Giscours.

This still leaves a lot of loopholes for the savvy producer with a negociant licence.

So I would say that unless the wine says "Mis en bouteille a la proprieté par xxx" and identifies xxx as a recoltant, vigneron or viticulteur, there is a reasonable chance that the wine is not an estate wine unless the estate is mentioned in the text of the bottling statement. I know several Coop wines which have the name of a chateau and say Mis en Bouteille au Chateau on the label. eg. Chateau les Pins, Chateau la Roca, Domaine Bisconte, Chateau Pezilla.

Jon,

What loopholes are you referring to?

You wrote:
"So I would say that unless the wine says "Mis en bouteille a la proprieté par xxx" and identifies xxx as a recoltant, vigneron or viticulteur, there is a reasonable chance that the wine is not an estate wine unless the estate is mentioned in the text of the bottling statement. I know several Coop wines which have the name of a chateau and say Mis en Bouteille au Chateau on the label. eg. Chateau les Pins, Chateau la Roca, Domaine Bisconte, Chateau Pezilla.

Wait a minute please - an estate wine does not have to be estate-bottled.

If a negociant commissions the estate bottling of a wine, the name of the estate owner is optional and, in fact, rarely appears.

As said at the beginning of this thread, a cooperative cellar is legally considered to own the means of production and therefore they are allowed to put estate bottled, but not château-bottled on the label (unless, of course, the wine is actually bottled at the chateau).

Best regards,
Alex R.