Cursed be the cork enclosure!

Tom... thanks for the positive attitude. Not.

Kelly... oh, yes. There's a big scandal about TCA-tainted Tylenol. I've smelled it in pre-bagged baby carrots, as have many others.

Rogov
Yes, I'd agree that accepting such favours would be a breach of ethics, so as I'm reading this it appears to be more a case of you don't want to risk:
- someone embarassing themselves by making an offer you have to refuse
- allegations that you're colluding with a winery/importer (along the lines of some of the *criticisms of Robert Parker / Jay Miller in respect of the Grateful Palate).

Perhap over-cautious, but I guess you've come across too many chinese whispers about "Rogov does this/that" to want to risk someone getting a bone to chew on.

FWIW there may be another reason, to do as you do, in that if it were known you shopped somewhere, it might be seen as an 'endorsement', in that if Rogov buys his wine there, it must be a good shop. A nice comment for a wine shop owner to slip into conversation with a (potential) new customer.

regards

Ian

n.b. I'm definitely not alleging collusion, but it's fair to say others questioned whether WA critics were too friendly with/towards the Grateful Palate.

Re: conflict of wine interests, as Tom Regan (Gabriel Byrne) said in "Miller's Crossing", "I can see the angle". I'm not saying stores would be trying to job Mr. Rogov, but you could see how they might; Mr. Store Owner gives him the good Chateau I Got Tons Of at a "very good price" and he might just think kindly of it and say so and then Mr. Store Owner has got crates priced to move when everybody reads about it. I say kudos to Mr. R. for going to great lengths from this even being a possibility.

Me, I just about fall over any retailer that gives me a gratis sip.

I'd not heard about the TCA in carrots. Interesting.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/04/08/FD821IRIFB.DTL

Rahasan, Hi....

Not trying at all to avoid questions but it is important to realize that many wine stores also have an importing arm and indeed are hoping for positive press. More than that, in Europe and the Middle-East, some wine stores are also partners in or have very special arrangements with various wineries. Their hope (possibly even unconscious) is that by giving the critic special prices they will be courting his/her favor and in return build in a positive bias that will yield better tasting notes and/or higher scores.

As to the rest, both Kelly and Ian have put their fingers nicely on the possible problems that might arise.

Best
Rogov

Tom... thanks for the positive attitude. Not.

Huh? What's the issue?

Oh dear. I was afraid when I posted this topic that I might start something.

Unfortunately I haven't been keeping track of where I bought my wines from, so I can't return them when something like this happens.

I don't see a very high rate of failure, and this is the first time I've ever encountered TCA in vintage Port. But the rate I've experienced with my wines is high enough to be annoying, and it always seems to happen with high-end bottles (probably because these are the ones I cellar the longest).

-Paul W.

But the rate I've experienced with my wines is high enough to be annoying, and it always seems to happen with high-end bottles (probably because these are the ones I cellar the longest).

.

I wonder about this. I've yet to encounter a cork tainted bottle. I've certainly had enough where statistically this should be the case. Now I do tend to drink young and at the more modest end of the spectrum. I suppose it's possible that I'm one of those blessed with the inability to sense TCA (thank God I don't have perfect pitch), though I highly doubt it since I can pick up about everything else. Does TCA pick up power over time?

I suppose it's possible that I'm one of those blessed with the inability to sense TCA (thank God I don't have perfect pitch), though I highly doubt it since I can pick up about everything else. Does TCA pick up power over time?

I'm not sure it's a blessing to be insensitive to TCA. You'll still notice the effects on the wine (most importantly the diminished fruit) but you won't be able to tell why and therefore won't know that it's not a representative bottle. Which then leads to all sorts of erroneous conclusions about particular wines.

In my experience TCA does become stronger with time. If I'm not sure upon opening it usually becomes clearer and clearer over a few hours.

Well I can now confirm I'm not insensitive. I probably did one of the more unusual things a wine drinker can do and went to my local shop and asked if they had any corked wine that had been returned. As it happened they did and let me have a whiff and sip. The wine was from a producer I knew, though not the specific bottling. I don't know who to describe the taste other than bad. The cardboard bit wasn't over the top as the oxidation faults in beer I've come across but it was definitely there.

[Robin Garr]

Well I can now confirm I'm not insensitive. I probably did one of the more unusual things a wine drinker can do and went to my local shop and asked if they had any corked wine that had been returned. As it happened they did and let me have a whiff and sip. The wine was from a producer I knew, though not the specific bottling. I don't know who to describe the taste other than bad. The cardboard bit wasn't over the top as the oxidation faults in beer I've come across but it was definitely there.

I truly admire this. Good job, Kelly!

Has anyone every encountered TCA/Cork Taint in anything besides wine? I was reading elsewhere that some folks claimed to have encountered it in beer, since there are more brews stoppered by cork now than in the recent past it certainly seems possible that it would be cropping up. That said the wet cardboard issue with beer is usually an oxidation problem. I've certainly never encountered it in beer, and lord knows I've have drunk a lot of corked stoppered beer, or in spirits though maybe the strength there would cover or not allow that fault. There's also the occasional other liquid food product with cork closure.

Thoughts?

I've encountered cork taint in a whiskey. It was a Glenfiddich 18, and some fool had jammed a wine cork into the bottle (presumably he hadn't been able to find the cork that came with the bottle). I poured myself a one ounce sample, but could not bring myself to finish it. Over the course of the event, others tried the whiskey, but while nobody specifically complained about the cork taint like I did, the bottle did not get finished, and under ordinary circumstances it would have.

Potential cork taint is why the common wisdom on whiskey is to store the bottle upright, and NOT in contact with the cork.

I suppose it's possible that I'm one of those blessed with the inability to sense TCA (thank God I don't have perfect pitch), though I highly doubt it since I can pick up about everything else. Does TCA pick up power over time?

I'm not sure it's a blessing to be insensitive to TCA. You'll still notice the effects on the wine (most importantly the diminished fruit) but you won't be able to tell why and therefore won't know that it's not a representative bottle. Which then leads to all sorts of erroneous conclusions about particular wines.

In my experience TCA does become stronger with time. If I'm not sure upon opening it usually becomes clearer and clearer over a few hours.

I may be wrong [and Kelly can quickly correct me] but I think the reference to "picking up power over time" was a question about TCA in the bottle before opening not after opening where it is certainly true that low level TCA which might not be smelled by [most] wine drinkers will become more obvious to some after time in the glass. However I think Kelly was asking whether TCA 'picks up power' with increasing age in the bottle?

The answer to that question is 'No' since 'available' TCA on a contaminated cork has been shown to transfer to wine pretty quickly when it is inserted. Sound cork is an excellent barrier and TCA will not penetrate it so it is possible to have TCA on a cork or in the immediate vicinity e.g. the cellar or OWC but as long as it is remote from the wine interface it will not reach the wine.

One might perceive a correlation between age and TCA but that is almost certainly due the fact that TCA was much more prevalent in the 80s and 90s than it is today - and even in the 00s it was reduced by around 80% [2001 to 2008] by the major cork producers as they belatedly recognised that e.g. screwcaps and engineered corks like DIAM were real alternatives and were actually preferred in certain parts of the market and by a growing number of winedrinkers. Specifically ETS and Scott Labs working for the US Cork Quality Council provided test results using state-of-the-art GC-MS equipment which showed average TCA falling from 4ppt to 0.8ppt in imported bales of cork between 2001 and 2008. In addition winemakers are much more aware of the problems of TCA contamination and have taken their own steps to minimise the chance of TCA reaching their wines through corks or other possible vectors.

Has anyone every encountered TCA/Cork Taint in anything besides wine? I was reading elsewhere that some folks claimed to have encountered it in beer, since there are more brews stoppered by cork now than in the recent past it certainly seems possible that it would be cropping up. That said the wet cardboard issue with beer is usually an oxidation problem. I've certainly never encountered it in beer, and lord knows I've have drunk a lot of corked stoppered beer, or in spirits though maybe the strength there would cover or not allow that fault. There's also the occasional other liquid food product with cork closure.

Thoughts?

I've encountered cork taint in a whiskey. It was a Glenfiddich 18, and some fool had jammed a wine cork into the bottle (presumably he hadn't been able to find the cork that came with the bottle). I poured myself a one ounce sample, but could not bring myself to finish it. Over the course of the event, others tried the whiskey, but while nobody specifically complained about the cork taint like I did, the bottle did not get finished, and under ordinary circumstances it would have.

Potential cork taint is why the common wisdom on whiskey is to store the bottle upright, and NOT in contact with the cork.

TCA is widely found in nature, drinking water included and winery contaminations have occasionally occurred through their water supply. Plastic and other synthetic materials also adsorb TCA [the well known Saran Wrap trick is an example] and is an additional reason, apart from the occasional contaminated water supply or local use of halogenated products for hygiene reasons, why TCA or related products with similar odours can often be smelled in plastic bagged fruit and vegetables.
Some whiskys, vodkas et al are closed with corks with a topper and these might be a source of TCA. IIRC Grey Goose, a French premium vodka, had a problem in the USA some years ago.
As for storing whisky upright there may be some advantage although if the TCA is readily available the whisky will most likely still be affected since it is unlikely that the cork will not have been in contact with whisky at some point in its transportation and prior storage. And each time the cork is withdrawn and whisky is poured there is the possibility of the TCA being on the glass neck and being picked up in the pour.

Of course wood generally is a known focus for haloanisole contamination since halogenated pesticide and fire-retardant treatments provide a direct source of of halophenols which can be converted to e.g. TCA and TeCA and TBA by a number of widely available moulds. Even simple bleach in contact with wood can eventually produce a relevant chlorophenol which moulds will translate by methylation to the haloanisole.

While cork closures will have caused the vast majority of TCA contamination of wine there are businesses involved in tracking down haloanisole problems that are not cork-originated and have caused their separate pollution of wine which will then of course contaminate any corks used in closing such wine.

In cellaring wines some conditions can lead to the development of mold on the surface of the cork, even under the capsule in some cases. Mold developing on labels is even more common a humidity-related problem. At least since the time of Edgar Allan Poe many have rid themselves of the mold by cleaning with chlorine bleach. It has been my understanding that such treatment can lead to the development of TCA even in an otherwise sound cork and thus pass on to the wine itself. I have thus advised people to clean mold in their cellars or on their bottles with nothing more than luke-warm water. An option to make this a bit easier when cleaning bottles is to add about 1 Tbsp. of apple vinegar per gallon of water.

I may simply be going on heresay and may thus be wrong on this. If anyone can point to evidence to the contrary it woud be much appreciated. That is to say, evidence demonstrating that cleaning the cellar and/or individual bottles with a chlorine solution cannot lead to the potential development of TCA.

Best
Rogov

Although I buy my wines primarily at one or two shops, I'm not a "familiar face" enough to warrant the shopkeeper refunding on a wine I bought 15+ years ago that I said I cellered properly. I buy by the bottle, not the case, and the only face I usually see is the person at the check-out counter.

Marlyne, Hi...

A good bet is to keep receipts until you have consumed the wine. Keeping receipts will also come in handy if (heaven forbid) someone breaks into your home and steals the wine or (doubly heaven forbid). I was going to say that this would also be good for insurance purposes if a home is destroyed by fire but realized that the receipts would probably also be destroyed. For that reason good to set up a file on your computer to keep track of what was purchased, when, where and at what price and to back up that file on a convenient back-up mechanism (e.g. G-mail)

Best
Rogov

In cellaring wines some conditions can lead to the development of mold on the surface of the cork, even under the capsule in some cases. Mold developing on labels is even more common a humidity-related problem. At least since the time of Edgar Allan Poe many have rid themselves of the mold by cleaning with chlorine bleach. It has been my understanding that such treatment can lead to the development of TCA even in an otherwise sound cork and thus pass on to the wine itself. I have thus advised people to clean mold in their cellars or on their bottles with nothing more than luke-warm water. An option to make this a bit easier when cleaning bottles is to add about 1 Tbsp. of apple vinegar per gallon of water.

I may simply be going on heresay and may thus be wrong on this. If anyone can point to evidence to the contrary it woud be much appreciated. That is to say, evidence demonstrating that cleaning the cellar and/or individual bottles with a chlorine solution cannot lead to the potential development of TCA.

Best
Rogov

Daniel, chlorine solution/bleach use on cork or wood, as I mentioned in my earlier post, can certainly result in the formation of TCA should any of a number of moulds be available so should not be used in cellars or wineries to 'disinfect' such locations since a different sort of potential 'infection' might be created.

However, while it is certainly to be discouraged as a risk, the creation [if it occurred] of TCA on the top surface of an otherwise sound cork would not result in the contamination of the wine below due to the general impermeability of cork to TCA et al. Probably the best known test for this was by the Australian Wine Research Institute [AWRI] where radioactively-tagged TCA was placed on the top of the corks of a series of bottled wines which did not penetrate to the wine in any of the bottles so treated.

The reason for radioactively-tagging the TCA was to be able to distinguish it from any TCA that might have been 'naturally' present in the wine. After 36 months the tests done on the wine and on the corks led them to the conclusion that not only had the tagged TCA not penetrated to the wine but would not even over a longer time period.

In any event the placement of TCA directly on to the cork surface was in itself as extreme a test as possible since in more normal situations other vectors must coincide before such a situation would be manifest. Anecdotally there are many examples of cellars with known TCA infections in wooden cases and the structural woodwork that have, over many years, not had elevated levels of corked wines. In a winery it is a different matter since wine in open vats etc can be susceptible to airborne transfer and there are more direct ways that e.g. barrels, pipes and hoses can become infected from a local source.

Even new barrels have been shown to be vulnerable to TCA infection and this has fairly recently been the focus of a dispute between the barrel makers in France and the major French laboratory who has claimed that the risk is real - and has a test kit to ensure it is excluded.

IMO your advice to only use warm [chlorine-free] water, remembering that some water supplies carry quite high levels of chlorination and sometimes TCA, is right although I am not sure that any sort of vinegar in or around a cellar is entirely risk free however unlikely an adverse reaction might be due to the general quality of the cork seal.

Of course any seal can fail for a variety of reasons and any significant failure could mean that external agents like TCA and even vinegar that are present might become viable threats.

Many thanks Nigel for your response in general and in particular with relation to the radioactive TCA tests. I'll hunt up the study but it surely sounds fairly definitive.

Best
Rogov

Some whiskys, vodkas et al are closed with corks with a topper and these might be a source of TCA. IIRC Grey Goose, a French premium vodka, had a problem in the USA some years ago.
As for storing whisky upright there may be some advantage although if the TCA is readily available the whisky will most likely still be affected since it is unlikely that the cork will not have been in contact with whisky at some point in its transportation and prior storage. And each time the cork is withdrawn and whisky is poured there is the possibility of the TCA being on the glass neck and being picked up in the pour.

The vast majority of the whiskey I buy and collect (currently approximately 180 bottles in my whiskey collection) is closed with corks with toppers. While I've encountered it a number of times in wines, the only time I've encountered cork taint in a whiskey was that one bottle of Glenfiddich 18 with the wine cork floating in it. Obviously, NIgel, you are far more knowledgeable about TCA than I am - I was just passing on information related to me, including by a representative of Diageo. Thank you for the education.

In my experience, really great (ie cool and somewhat humid) storage conditions almost always lead to a certain amount of mold under the capsule, and AFAIK that is not a problem. (My cellar is too dry, no mold, but the wines I've had from great English storage were usually 'moldy'.)

One of the main ways winery cellars have become grossly contaminated with TCA is the use of bleach for cleaning purposes, I would avoid it. A damp paper towel before decanting is fine.