Curious WS ValueWines...

The first question I have is whether there should be a serious question about the value of the Wine Spectator. It is what it is. There is decent stuff in it. There is the usual BS. It is there to make money. I have no problem with that, but don't ask me to take it seriously.

James,
I agree totally. My problem is that it appears to be a travel fluff magazine with comments on wine that I have no faith in when purchasing. I see no real value in the Speck and can't take the wine info very serious. It is geared to point chasers that only drink 90+ wines and have no opinion of their own. Harsh statement but true. In a local wine blog the importance of points was questioned and the only people that needed points was the retailer. They said many customers know nothing about wine but will only order 90+ wines, sad!! Most serious wine drinkers form their own opinions of wines.
Walt

[Jenise]

There's value...and there's value.

But it shows how far WS has moved from speaking to me that it lists a wine for $50 as a "value".

Amen!

[David M. Bueker]

WS is geared to folks who view wine as part of a fabulous lifestyle. It's no more fluff than high end travel mags. It's not serious wine journalism, nor is it meant to be. There really isn't any serious wine journalism, because the audience for it is so small that the model is nearly impossible to sustain. So you get specialized critical reviews (WA, Burghound, IWC) and stuff that is designed to sell copies to people who want to live that special life.

Just looking at their TopValue list, the procucers Pedemonte, Sodaro, RootsRunDeep, 4Bears, and Line 39 are all wineries I never heard of. I have no ideawhat their production levels are and not inclined to do the research to find out. But I would guess their availability is not as great as the Neyers, which I see onretail lists quite a bit. But, must admit, I don't buy much in the way of Cab and don't really know what the Cab market is like.

Tom,
not sure if you are referring to Top Value for a particular article, or in the Buying Guide. I don't have access to WS. The only remaining copy I have of WS (the copy with DRC on cover, one day will read that article) has wide distribution listed as a criteria for Value Wines in buying guide. A quick WSearcher shows 6 places in 3 states with the Neyers, about 30 places in 8 spreadout states with the Round Pond. Which is probably about in line with stated production. I've never heard of the 5 producers you list, and search for 2007 cabernet for Pedemonte or Sodaro produces nothing. But Educated Guess (RRun Deep) gets several pages of listings at $15-20, as does Sean Minor/4 Bears at $12-18, and Line 39 gets 2 pages at $7-13. That took about 2 minutes on Wine Searcher (I also spent 1 minute finding the hard copy, and a minute finding and reading the criteria for Value Wine in buying guide).

I have no problem with criticism of WS, as noted I didn't really read it when it came for free. A WS rating means zero to me. I just think that if people are going to make insinuations about ethics and honesty, you should be prepared to actually examine the issue.

[James Roscoe]

WS is geared to folks who view wine as part of a fabulous lifestyle. It's no more fluff than high end travel mags. It's not serious wine journalism, nor is it meant to be. There really isn't any serious wine journalism, because the audience for it is so small that the model is nearly impossible to sustain. So you get specialized critical reviews (WA, Burghound, IWC) and stuff that is designed to sell copies to people who want to live that special life.

David, you say it well. I reserve the right to make totally spurious comments about them at a moments notice.

Someone suggested it was based on availibility/production level/national distribution; but there are some obscure/limited production Cabs that also received a "TopValue", so that's not the criteria. Since I've noticed RoundPond adverts in the WS, I speculated, with absolutely no actual evidence, that that may have been the reason. But I'm certainly open to suggestions for other options on what criteria they use to designate a "TopValue", since I couldn't find their criteria stated anywhere in the publication.

As the presence of limited production wines on the TopValue list led you to reject that availability was one of the criteria in determining what wines are TopValue, the presence of any wines on the TopValue list that don't advertise in the publication should lead you to similarly reject advertising as a criterion in determining what wines are TopValue. I'd be curious to know if this is the case--are all of the wines on the TopValue list ones that advertise in the publication?

WS is geared to folks who view wine as part of a fabulous lifestyle. It's no more fluff than high end travel mags. It's not serious wine journalism, nor is it meant to be. There really isn't any serious wine journalism, because the audience for it is so small that the model is nearly impossible to sustain. So you get specialized critical reviews (WA, Burghound, IWC) and stuff that is designed to sell copies to people who want to live that special life.

Again it is just an opinion and perception but I consider Dan Berger's articles in the "California Grapevine" to be serious wine journalism. As an observer he has never shy about sharing his perceptions and opinions. Serious journalism has never required a large audience only the opportunity to write, be published and read (by whatever number). New England for example has had a number of very serious journalists who wrote for publications with a very small readership.

I do not disagree that WS is now geared "to folks who view wine as part of a fabulous lifestyle." If I didn't receive it gratis I wouldn't bother with it.

One problem I am having now is that due to all the gratis subscriptions we have I have a hell of a time trying to even look at them all much less really read them. We receive over 20!

[David M. Bueker]

New England for example has had a number of very serious journalists who wrote for publications with a very small readership.

Very true. The Art of Eating springs to mind as one of the best examples.

This web forum renders WS and the like pretty much useless. Ok, maybe this site should have more pretty pictures but that's a quibble.

This web forum renders WS and the like pretty much useless. Ok, maybe this site should have more pretty pictures but that's a quibble.

More of us should try and follow Noel's example.

More of us should try and follow Noel's example.

Me, wot?

[David M. Bueker]

Go to my Argentina thread - lots of photos with more to come!

There really isn't any serious wine journalism, because the audience for it is so small that the model is nearly impossible to sustain.

Sommelier Journal is an excellent example of a serious wine journal, but it is a industry journal, and not really available to the general public. It's too bad there isn't something like this out there for serious wine lovers who aren't wine professionals.

It's too bad there isn't something like this out there for serious wine lovers who aren't wine professionals.

Why?

It's too bad there isn't something like this out there for serious wine lovers who aren't wine professionals.

Why?

Sommelier Journal is not available to the general public, but it is the best wine journal I have seen around. It would be nice if there was something of this caliber for the general public also. Perhaps there is and I'm just not aware, but I haven't seen one.

Sommelier Journal is not available to the general public, but it is the best wine journal I have seen around. It would be nice if there was something of this caliber for the general public also. Perhaps there is and I'm just not aware, but I haven't seen one.

I asked why because as David said above, it's not clear there is a demand. Just because Sommelier Journal is well done does not mean it is relevant for non-professionals. As mentioned above, the tiny niche of people interested enough in wine to chat about it on internet sites and dismiss the WS as too simple, may not be enough to support such a specialized publication. Especially because you wouldn't even get all the folks on here to subscribe. (I probably wouldn't. The last thing I need is more things to read about wine).

But FWIW, I always thought The World of Fine Wine was the type of thing you are talking about. I don't read it, but they seem to do fine with their low budgets and detailed content.

[David M. Bueker]

Good point about the World of Fine Wine. I love their in-depth articles. Their tasting panels leave me baffled more often than not though.

Sommelier Journal is not available to the general public, but it is the best wine journal I have seen around. It would be nice if there was something of this caliber for the general public also. Perhaps there is and I'm just not aware, but I haven't seen one.

I asked why because as David said above, it's not clear there is a demand. Just because Sommelier Journal is well done does not mean it is relevant for non-professionals. As mentioned above, the tiny niche of people interested enough in wine to chat about it on internet sites and dismiss the WS as too simple, may not be enough to support such a specialized publication. Especially because you wouldn't even get all the folks on here to subscribe. (I probably wouldn't. The last thing I need is more things to read about wine).

But FWIW, I always thought The World of Fine Wine was the type of thing you are talking about. I don't read it, but they seem to do fine with their low budgets and detailed content.

I would argue that Sommelier Journal has much information that is relevant to non-professionals. Although there are articles about service, the majority of it is educational about wine regions and producers as well as highlighting wines of note. I'm not saying it needs to be duplicated exactly for the general public, I'm just saying that there is a need for informative wine journals that aren't the likes of Spectator, etc. I guess this is a subjective argument, because although you may not see a demand, nor would subscribe personally, I know lots of people who aren't in the profession that have a great interest in learning a great deal about wine who are often looking for resources such as this.

Oh, and thanks for the tip on the World of Fine Wine. I hadn't heard of it - I'll have to check it out!

Oh, and thanks for the tip on the World of Fine Wine. I hadn't heard of it - I'll have to check it out!

http://www.finewinemag.com/

[David M. Bueker]

Oh, and thanks for the tip on the World of Fine Wine. I hadn't heard of it - I'll have to check it out!

http://www.finewinemag.com/

Bring your wallet & a banker!

I really like the WoFW, but just felt it a bit pricey. Almost as thick as a book and well written, but priced like a book, too. 4 issues of WoFW, or 8 bottles of Briords? If my income rose I'd subscribe quickly.
Never read SJ, but some articles would have general interest (like whether to serve Champagne in flutes or white glasses, article mentioned on their website frontpage). But lots about business.

I'm more concerned with articles than reviews. That said, I get reviews from both through CT, the problem with the SJ ones are I have no clue to the authors, so little use. Some names from WoFW are more familiar (Jefford, Schuster, etc) and I can begin to get a sense.

I really like the WoFW, but just felt it a bit pricey. Almost as thick as a book and well written, but priced like a book, too. 4 issues of WoFW, or 8 bottles of Briords? If my income rose I'd subscribe quickly.
Never read SJ, but some articles would have general interest (like whether to serve Champagne in flutes or white glasses, article mentioned on their website frontpage). But lots about business.

I'm more concerned with articles than reviews. That said, I get reviews from both through CT, the problem with the SJ ones are I have no clue to the authors, so little use. Some names from WoFW are more familiar (Jefford, Schuster, etc) and I can begin to get a sense.

I agree that WoFW is outrageously priced, and for that reason I will probably never subscribe. SJ is mostly articles, written by wine professionals - mostly MS, MW, and CWEs. One MS I used to work with, Jesse Becker, is a contributing editor. I apreciate it not only for the industry advice, but also the focus on food-friendly wines, and for the educational articles on regions, producers, and techniques in winemaking. It is incredibly helpful to me in my own wine education, as well as introduces me to wines to look for that match my palate preference.

A lot of good insight here. I do read the WS, Decanter, WE and Wines and Spirits (a few times). I am also keen on quite a few of the wine-related blogs out there on the `net and I have quite a few bookmarked. I think I can get more info from these writers than some of the magazines out there. Plus of course there is this place plus UKWine Pages, Beserkers, AusForum just to name a few.
Most of this is free!!