Contrary to popular belief, Bordeaux is not overpriced

Dale said:

'll also note my worst wine buying experiences in bistros and small restaurants in France have been when I'm ordered the house Bordeaux or lower end Cote de Blaye on list.

In my limited travels in both France and Italy, the house wine has never disappointed. You have a more experienced and educated palate, and probably far more travel time in Europe, but I'm surprised that you have run into so many chefs willing to serve bad wine.

Well, I've travelled extensively and relatively many times to both France and Italy over the last 20 years. My experiences with house wines in French bistro and small restaurants in many regions in France is that most house wines I've had were plonk and forgettable and that I had rarely been pleased with pairing them with whatever menu-du-jour that the chef prix fixed for the day, such that I would end up ordering a glass or half-bottle of the relatively more expensive ones than endure finishing that transparent red stuff that came in the caraffe that they were served in.

My experiences with house wines in French bistro and small restaurants in many regions in France is that most house wines I've had were plonk and forgettable and that I had rarely been pleased with pairing them with whatever menu-du-jour that the chef prix fixed for the day, such that I would end up ordering a glass or half-bottle of the relatively more expensive ones than endure finishing that transparent red stuff that came in the caraffe that they were served in.

This has also been my experience but we're speaking at such a level of generality it is difficult to compare. I don't disagree that there are special places with well-chosen house wine but seem to be few and far between. It all depends where one eats.

Dale,

You wrote:
"Alex, one of the reasons your trolls irritate those of us (interested in Bordeaux in general) who respond is your tendency to be dismissive and sarcastic of all of the responses that don't say what you want them to".

Is that the royal we? .
My post was NOT a troll. This was announced from the very first. I also posted it on the Wine Berserkers forum. Nearly 100 people read it before anyone replied, which I think proves my point.
Also, as you can see, in this thread as on the other forum, opinions are divided on the subject. I'll admit to being dismissive of your French friends because they should know better.

"As someone who drinks a rather large variety of wines, I don't personally find subtlety an especial characteristic of inexpensive Bordeaux, your opinion obviously differs".

I'm confused here, because we cannot be talking about the same wines, and I find it's your turn to be dismissive here, Dale…

"Certainly in good wine shops there isn't generally a lot of iffy stuff. But if you go to the liquor stores and grocery stores that sell the vast majority of wine in the US, the selection will generally consist of Mouton Cadet, maybe a B&G Medoc, a few inexpensive Medoc petit chateaux or satellites (if you're lucky they might have Greysac or Larose Trintaudon) of variable quantity, one no name St Emilion, one or two overpriced classified wines (dusty and cooked most likely). The odds are definitely stacked against you".

I'd say it's more like they are stacked against YOU!
There is a marvelous selection of wines here. Which explains much of why we are talking at cross-purposes. We are not speaking about the same wines.

"Well, maybe not if your definition of "wine savvy" is "believes always that Bordeaux is the best." "

Ah, finally someone who understands me! ))))))))))

"But I'd posit my French friends are far more wine knowledgeable (and less provincial) that the average French (or US) consumer, all having lived internationally (and most having lived in more than one region of France)".

That remains to be seen. I don't know them. But what I'm trying to say is if you go to where most French people live, i.e. Paris, and you take your girl out to a nice dinner before asking her to marry her, and you go to a good restaurant, and you don't want to mess around, it's most likely a Bordeaux that you'll order! It is the benchmark and, as such, I guess it is only normal that people should try to criticize it.

"But I find the whining blaming the consumer and the trade, yet never the Bordelais, irritating".

I'll grant your point her Dale, and take a step towards you. I've blamed the American trade without blaming the Bordeaux trade, who also share some of the responsibility.

"However, it is good to know that I needn't worry about the stories of the troubles of the low end producers in Bordeaux, with all of those studies about the Belgian and French markets they must be buying it all up"!

They do. Shitloads of it. The challenge to those producers is not the difficulty penetrating the American market that only wants great growths. It is largely due to a lot of other economic factors: the 35 hour work week, the huge cost of social security payroll deductions, production costs, the fact that young people want to move to the city and leave an easier life, etc.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Tim,

You wrote:
"All the other good wine choosers seem largely to steer clear of BX whilst having great QPR selections of Loire, Rhône, etc. and most serious wine lovers seem happy with this situation".

OK, only fuckwits buy Bordeaux in Belgium (which imports, last time I looked, more Bordeaux than the United States).
Gotcha.
I think…

Alex, you miss the point which I am trying to make. Namely, for serious wine-lovers, the help of a wine merchant to sort out the wheat from the chaff amongst the 95% of Bordeaux is indispensable. I do not disagree with the proposition that there is a lot of good QPR Bordeaux out there, even in Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur appellations. The problem is how to pick it out from the oceans of plonk.

Let us face it. Rightly or wrongly, Bordeaux does have an image problem and the Bordelais must take a lot of the blame for this. Look at Cahors, whose product is inherently less crowd pleasing than decent claret, for a possible example of what could be done. Their syndicate is dynamic and I have read reports here of their organising tastings in the USA to familiarise people, and particularly wine merchants, with the product. Why couldn't the Bordeaux syndicate organise something similar making a selection of good affordable clarets to take round the USA, UK, Belgium etc. as evidence to back up a better focussed promotion campaign for their affordable wines than they have attempted so far? It would cost money and displease growers whose wines are not selected but it might get things moving.

Tim,

You wrote:
"Alex, you miss the point which I am trying to make. Namely, for serious wine-lovers, the help of a wine merchant to sort out the wheat from the chaff amongst the 95% of Bordeaux is indispensable. I do not disagree with the proposition that there is a lot of good QPR Bordeaux out there, even in Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur appellations. The problem is how to pick it out from the oceans of plonk".

Yes, I can see this entirely.
There is so much Bordeaux that the consumer is lost. To what extent he is more lost than with Burgundy or Loire wines, for instance, is hard for me to say...
But it's true: in a sense, it's a jungle out there!
Makes you begin to see the power of the wine critics...

You went on to say:
"Let us face it. Rightly or wrongly, Bordeaux does have an image problem and the Bordelais must take a lot of the blame for this."

Image problem. Ha, yes and no! The Chinese would kill their mothers (may be doing so at present for all I know) for a bottle or two of Lafite. But they don't know about, much less buy the more affordable wines of Bordeaux.
The name wines sell well at increasingly strospheric prices, so no problem there.
But it simply does not make sense - in fact, it is to me foolish - to assume that any other than these are unworthy of attention.
Still, I can see your point: in order not to be disappointed, you prefer to be guided, either by a merchant or some publication.
You subscribe to RVF. They frequently reveiw affordable Bordeaux. The Guide Hachette has pages and pages...

You finish by saying:
"Look at Cahors, whose product is inherently less crowd pleasing than decent claret, for a possible example of what could be done".

I admire what's happening with Cahors but, the problem is, Tim, these successes are so often a flash in the pan. Wines come into fashion... and then go out again. This could easily be the fate of Cahors, although I'm with you in thinking they deserve much better than that.

As for:

"Why couldn't the Bordeaux syndicate organise something similar making a selection of good affordable clarets to take round the USA, UK, Belgium etc. as evidence to back up a better focussed promotion campaign for their affordable wines than they have attempted so far? It would cost money and displease growers whose wines are not selected but it might get things moving."

A good analysis and your second sentence accurately summed up the major pitfall...

Sometimes, I think I should just put together a portfolio of excellent petits châteaux and hit the road to sell them.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Also, as you can see, in this thread as on the other forum, opinions are divided on the subject.

Actually, reading the threads on both Berserkers and UK Wine Pages, I don't see anyone who disagrees with my basic point:
There are some very good wines made in less prestigious places like St Emilion satellites, Fronsac, the Cotes, and even Bdx Sup. But they are the minority.
Comments on the other boards include "outside of the wines we've all heard of, there's oceans and ocean's of -- let's be frank -- crap, " "Most of the wine made in Bdx is plonk and it is only the top 5% that is of much interest." etc. I see a couple of comments recommending specific wines (as I have), but no one disputing that there is a very large amount of poor wine made in Bordeaux, and that it damages the "brand." If I missed it, please point me to specific posts.

"As someone who drinks a rather large variety of wines, I don't personally find subtlety an especial characteristic of inexpensive Bordeaux, your opinion obviously differs".
I'm confused here, because we cannot be talking about the same wines, and I find it's your turn to be dismissive here, Dale…

I don't think that dismissive at all. I'm saying in comparison to the other reds I mentioned, I have never experienced Bdx as somehow being more subtle. Do you think if doing a poll of wine drinkers with wide experience you asked for the "most subtle wine" that Bordeaux would be a runaway winner? I think not.

That remains to be seen. I don't know them. But what I'm trying to say is if you go to where most French people live, i.e. Paris, and you take your girl out to a nice dinner before asking her to marry her, and you go to a good restaurant, and you don't want to mess around, it's most likely a Bordeaux that you'll order! .

Probably true (though me, I'd probably go Burgundy). But I'd assume most people proposing are not going Cotes de Blaye if choosing Bordeaux, they're going for classified!

Look, Bordeaux is still the largest part of my cellar. Some 1855 wines, some Cru B, some classified St Em, some Pomerol, a few Cotes wine. I like Bordeaux, and look for it at all price levels. But in my experience there is more dreck at low end than in many other regions. If you want people to focus on the lower end wines, that needs to be dealt with. You decry that people say Bordeaux and mean the classified wines, less than 5%. But then you want to ignore the vast quantities of poor wine, making your definition of Bordeaux based only on the wines you want to focus on. No one - no one!- has argued there are not good wines made in the Cotes and even Bordeaux Superieur. But as Tim, myself, and others have pointed out, in both the US, UK, and Belgium if one doesn't make informed choices the odds of a good wine are poor. No region makes mostly good to great wine, but few regions export so much downright poor wine.

According to CIVB, of Bordeaux vineyards:
47% is Red Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur.
15% Red Côtes de Bordeaux
10% Red Libourne
17% Red Graves and Médoc
8% Dry white wines
3% Sweet white wines
I'd assume that typical yields are higher in Bdx/Bdx Sup AC than the more prestigous areas, but in any case those appellations are well over half of the red production of Bordeaux. I think most people agree that most are ....hmmmmm.....not inspiriing. When you add the all of the poor Cotes de Blaye, Cotes de Franc, etc (I know there are good ones, just as in Bordeaux AC, but there certainly are plenty of bad ones, and I find it hard to believe that importers intentionally chose the worst), all of the crappy St Emilion ACs, the things like Barton & Guestier Medoc etc, it's hard to argue with the contention that there is an ocean of poor Bordeaux out there. Yet while you are decrying the focus on the classified wines, you are asking everyone to ignore the 50%+ of plonk.

You refer to Bordeaux as the benchmark, but the fact is the benchmark IS based on the classified wines. As someone named Greg Dyer put on the other forum:
But I have to say that Bordeaux has created this situation on its own. If you create hoopla exclusively over the top 1% of houses because of an 1857 (sic) classification, don't expect people to be able to see anything but the hoopla. Bordeaux has chosen to define itself in this way. It wants to be a luxury good, and so it is.

I think Tim's idea is great, but as noted the poor producers would object.

OK, seas of plonk. Certainly in good wine shops there isn't generally a lot of iffy stuff. But if you go to the liquor stores and grocery stores that sell the vast majority of wine in the US, the selection will generally consist of Mouton Cadet, maybe a B&G Medoc, a few inexpensive Medoc petit chateaux or satellites (if you're lucky they might have Greysac or Larose Trintaudon) of variable quantity, one no name St Emilion, one or two overpriced classified wines (dusty and cooked most likely). The odds are definitely stacked against you.

But Dale...couldn't you use this criterion (corner liquor store wines) to damn any wine region? I mean...my corner liquor store will have a lot of BV Coastal and Crane Lake and Yellow Tail....Does that mean California and Aussie wines are bad?

Hi Dale,

You wrote:
"Actually, reading the threads on both Berserkers and UK Wine Pages, I don't see anyone who disagrees with my basic point:
There are some very good wines made in less prestigious places like St Emilion satellites, Fronsac, the Cotes, and even Bdx Sup. But they are the minority".

You are in the States, and I would not presume to comment on the wines available on your market. Perhaps you are right, and they are indeed poor – in which case I would mostly fault the selection at your disposal and the importers, not an entire category of wine!
(i.e., why would the people bringing in an distributing the wine target poor products?).
However, I note that Brian writes "I am lucky enough to live in the SF Bay region. There are Bordeaux directly imported by K&L Wines in the sub $20 price range that I would frankly rather drink than many more expensive Napa Cabernets".
I am not at all surprised by his comment.
In fact, I think Bordeaux provides better value for money than California, insofar as one can compare such things ("quality" being elusive, especially from different regions).
I've already granted you that Bordeaux gets "beaten" at the lowest end of the scale. In fact, Dale, I'm referring to the wines that are "medium cheap": ones that cost about 10-15 euros here. Then there's a plateau one step up, from 15 to about 25 roughly speaking.
The people who wrote the comments you copied such as "outside of the wines we've all heard of, there's oceans and ocean's of -- let's be frank -- crap, " and the even more ignorant "Most of the wine made in Bdx is plonk and it is only the top 5% that is of much interest."
are not to be taken seriously!

You also wrote:
"I don't think that dismissive at all".
Hmmm. When I was, I admitted it .
followed by:
"Do you think if doing a poll of wine drinkers with wide experience you asked for the "most subtle wine" that Bordeaux would be a runaway winner? I think not.

I think so… Bordeaux and Burgundy are the references in French wines – and arguably the yardstick for the entire world.

You also wrote:
"But in my experience there is more dreck at low end than in many other regions."

Of course, I can't argue with your experience, I can only argue with the quality of what you've been exposed to, and that it does not correspond to what I can buy 2 minutes from my front door.

You continue:

"You decry that people say Bordeaux and mean the classified wines, less than 5%. But then you want to ignore the vast quantities of poor wine, making your definition of Bordeaux based only on the wines you want to focus on".

All I'm asking you to be is a little more objective. Hammering away at the "vast quantities of poor wine" is not very specific, and could be said about any other huge vineyard region. For a start, there's more wine made here than any other French appellation except Languedoc so everything is magnified.
And I contend as irrational and wildly subjective your affirmation that "No region makes mostly good to great wine, but few regions export so much downright poor wine".
What basis in fact is there?
Not much if you ask me!
Obviously, your opinion is your opinion, chacun à son goût and all that, be don't be surprised if I take exception to such a damning statement!

Then you write:
"Yet while you are decrying the focus on the classified wines, you are asking everyone to ignore the 50%+ of plonk".

So, tell us please, what percentage in your opinion of other French wines that you can buy is "plonk" so we can understand you better?

Interestingly, you analyze:

'You refer to Bordeaux as the benchmark, but the fact is the benchmark IS based on the classified wines".

Yes and no. The fact that hundreds of thousands of hectolitres of the stuff is exported to just about every country on earth – and that the Bordelais have been doing this for centuries – would seem to argue against a fixation on the great growths.

Best regards,
Alex R.
P.S. – you can wish me a happy birthday – nice wine dinner planned tonight. All Bordeaux only because of a visiting journalist and an English MW. Otherwise I love wines from all around the world.

Let’s just blame Samuel Pepys!

Salute

[David M. Bueker]

Careful Brian - nobody is saying "Bordeaux is bad." Rather the issue is that we have almost the exact opposite of what is going on in Australia. Aussie wines have been tainted by the wild success of cheap, drinkable to the masses fruit syrup concentrate that obscures some very fine wines (and enables some even more expensive fruit syrup concentrate that makes Yellow Tail seem elegant).

Bordeaux is dominated by these historic, increasingly expensive names, and there is no branded Bordeaux that captures the tastebuds of the masses to get them to think about Bordeaux as their regular drink.

Indeed throughout France many of the most exciting times for wine lovers are those few weeks each year when supermarkets (yes, not a typographical error) and even cheapie chains such as UniPrix feature a huge selection of Bordeaux wines, many of which do come in comfortably at quite reasonable prices. For between 8 and 15 Euros one can find a great many wines that are just fine for everyday drinking and at between 15-25 Euros some truly superb wines on offer.

Indeed, many of these Chateaux are unknown outside of France and there is some junk mixed in there but those French men and women who have more than a passing interest in wine do their homework and even make notes from year to year on which wines have attained a track record. Not all that hard to do as each supermarket chain publishes a catalogue (sometimes as many as fifty pages) listing the wines available and all are available in quantity large enough that one is not going to "miss out" by holding off for a day or two.

The one habit that I know at such special sales is that university people tend to send out scouts to purchase a single bottle of each of as many as forty or fifty such wines and then offer tastings to faculty and staff so that people can decide what is going to be on their shopping list.

In short, I agree with Alex' hypothesis that on an overall basis Bordeaux continues to offer some of the best buys of good and often excellent wines. I also concur that in the case of producers not known to me I would much rather gamble on lower priced Bordeaux than on lower priced California wines.

As to the top wines and the top prices, I am surprised at all of the hullabaloo. I remember what some like to call "the good old days" when you could buy the very best of Bordeaux for US$30-40 and would you believe that even then a good many people were complaining that the wineries had gone out of their minds with greed.

Best
Rogov

Sometimes, I think I should just put together a portfolio of excellent petits châteaux and hit the road to sell them.

That would be a great project, Alex. Believe it or not, it would tempt me to come out of retirement to join in.

Many happy returns of the day and have a great party.

The one habit that I know at such special sales is that university people tend to send out scouts to purchase a single bottle of each of as many as forty or fifty such wines and then offer tastings to faculty and staff so that people can decide what is going to be on their shopping list.

We have Foires aux Vins here too in our supermarkets. That is a great idea where there is a sufficient number of people, at a university, sports club or business firm, to cover enough ground to find a few gems. Those like me who cannot form a sufficiently big tasting group are on their own and need the pre-selection of a good merchant. I can't speak for Californian wine but, on the basis of my experience with unfamiliar Bordeaux châteaux, I am not prepared to indulge in the lucky dip.

Careful Brian - nobody is saying "Bordeaux is bad." Rather the issue is that we have almost the exact opposite of what is going on in Australia. Aussie wines have been tainted by the wild success of cheap, drinkable to the masses fruit syrup concentrate that obscures some very fine wines (and enables some even more expensive fruit syrup concentrate that makes Yellow Tail seem elegant).

Bordeaux is dominated by these historic, increasingly expensive names, and there is no branded Bordeaux that captures the tastebuds of the masses to get them to think about Bordeaux as their regular drink.

True. But all I am saying is that it is unfair to judge Bordeaux based on what is available at the lowest end of the retail chain. Plus, I would probably rather drink Mouton Cadet than BV Coastal Generic Red Wine Product anyway.

Brian,
by "liquor store" I was more referring to the bigger style market that sells wine and liquor as opposed to fine wine stores, not so much the small corner store. But my bigger point was supermarkets (in states where they can sell wine). I've bought lower end Jadot in a supermarket with a limited selection, I've bought CA, I've bought Chianti. But the Bordeaux selection is uniformly dreadful, except for maybe at a few really upscale markets.

Alex,
Brian's point re the DI stuff at K&L is actually similar to the points I made re the DI stuff at Chambers (Grolet, Peybonhomme, etc). But those are very unusual stores. As David notes, one of the problems with Bordeaux is the lack of decent quality "brands", Mouton Cadet and the dreadful Barton and G. are the only ones that tend to end up in US, as opposed to Burgundies from better negociants (Jadot, Drouhin, etc), Cotes du Rhones from big houses, large brand Chiantis, Riojas. I buy Jadot with some confidence, I don't feel the same way re unknown chateaux at a supermarket.

I've stated in every response to this thread that I buy and like some under $20 Bordeaux, and even more $20-40. But I still maintain that among everyone I know - American, English, Belgian, French- the knowledgeable people have a generally low opinion of inexpensive Bordeaux as a category, while I'd think virtually all of them might champion a specific petit chateau. I'm speaking of those say 35 and older, because Bordeaux isn't even on the radar of most of the younger winegeeks I know (if they refer to it at all it is as "Bored-O"). I hope the Bordelais do ok with their push towards Asia, because if they are depending on an American market in 20 years I'd predict they are in real trouble. Most people my age (50 this fall) with a serious interest in wine cut their teeth on Bordeaux, when it was possible on a middle class budget to drink Cru Bourgeois regularly, a nice classified wine on special (and semi-special) occasions, and afford a 1st as a splurge. As someone said "I used to drink lots of $30-50 second and third growths, but someone stuck a 1 in front." So Bordeaux doesn't seem (from what I can see ) to be building the same core that they used to.

I just think if you are arguing that it is wrong to base judgments on Bordeaux on the great growths, it is equally wrong to make judgments ignoring other (larger) segments of Bordeaux production. I find it difficult to believe that both Belgian importers (as reported by Tim) and American importers (as reported by myself, David, and others) go and seek out the worst of Bordeaux (well, maybe Monsieur Touton does, it's the only reasonable explanation for that portfolio!). They certainly work hard to find and sell good wines from other regions.

In any case, happy birthday, enjoy your dinner, and post notes on the wines!

Dale,

Thanks for your birthday wishes.

Last night we had:

2005 L'Esquisse de Château Nairac: the sort of Sauternes that is much loved in France. Not heavy, but fruit forward, primary and pure. Like more traditional Sauternes it will age well, but it is perhaps best at this stage IMHO. People offended at the thought of having Sauternes (OK, a Barsac…) as an aperitif should give this a whirl.
2005 Ch. Fieuzal blanc: While not a cru classé like the red wine, this is frequently considered one of the top ten dry white wines of Bordeaux. However, it was very disappointing last night. Professionals are beginning to see that there is a premox problem in Bordeaux too. I think that is what hit here (I recently translated a research paper on the subject. I also learned, by the way, that premox affects red wines as well. They have now discovered the molecule that causes it and have recommended preventive measures).
2005 Ch. Siaurac, Lalande de Pomerol: This was gorgeous 3 years after the vintage, but has gone into an awkward stage, with the plush roundness gone into hiding. I have several other bottles and hope it will come out of its chrysalis.
2005 Ch. Montrose: The last bottle I had of this was clearly tired, but this one was all there, with a delicacy that was more reminiscent of Margaux than St. Estèphe on the palate. Lovely subtle bouquet with graphite overtones showing its more northerly origin. Great purity, lovely resolved tannins, and plenty of class. I think this wine is on the downward slope, but a delight for anyone who loves Médoc.
2007 Ch. de Fargues: A very different animal from the Esquisse. A traditional, more weighty wine that still needs years to show its best. Fargues deserves the increased attention it has been receiving. There was what I can only describe as a tannic quality on the finish that gives this a highly unusual flavor profile.

As to you other points, the discussion becomes a little sterile at this point, so I'll post no more on this thread after this last message.

Answering your post:

"As David notes, one of the problems with Bordeaux is the lack of decent quality "brands".

I agree wholeheartedly.
I wonder though: how many mass-produced "quality" brands of affordably priced wine are there anywhere else in France? I mean, there's nothing even remotely resembling that in Burgundy either (obviously, the answer depends on how you define quality), although maybe you feel that the Douhin/Jadot branded wines come into that category.
Maybe New World producers are just inherently better at this…
The absolute dream of the Bordeaux merchants is to create brands, but it's a very long, rocky road, and marketing wine is tough going.
Bordeaux has been trapped by the very "château" concept that was invented here and is much envied. An estate can only produce so much wine, so the château-as-brand is finite. In the same way that many people confuse the words "great growths" and "Bordeaux" in certain countries, there is a widespread feeling most everywhere that a genuine "Bordeaux" ought to be a "chateau"… Thus the profusion of petits châteaux which, I'll grant you and Tim, is not always easy to find your way around.
Mind you, imagine approaching Burgundy from scratch!

Yes, I've seen the world "boring" used to describe Bordeaux on some of the Internet fora (by the way, Alexis Lichine's négociant firm is called "Borvin", which is a most unfortunate name). Yeah, right, something approaching 10,000 estates, wines across every color and spectrum…
Other than the Burgundy fanatics, it is my opinion – and this is nothing but intuition – that some of the people who feel this way may change their minds down the road.
There is also a strong "fox and the grapes" factor at work here with regard to the flagship wines, which is understandable.

You wrote:
"I hope the Bordelais do ok with their push towards Asia, because if they are depending on an American market in 20 years I'd predict they are in real trouble".

The Bordeaux trade considers the Americans fair weather friends who, in effect, boycott entire vintages. The US is the number one or two market for the rarest wines because, the financial crisis notwithstanding, there is plenty of money around and a small but hardcore group of people who will always want "the best". And I doubt that will change drastically despite some of the dire warnings I've been reading here and there.
As for the affordable wines, I don't think any major player other than Mouton Cadet has put most of their eggs in the American basket.
Asia (read China) is indeed considered the new El Dorado. Your guess is as good as mine whether this will turn out to be a pipe dream or not.

Your penultimate comment:
"I just think if you are arguing that it is wrong to base judgments on Bordeaux on the great growths, it is equally wrong to make judgments ignoring other (larger) segments of Bordeaux production".

We are in complete agreement, although I draw a different conclusion from what you say because I have seen time and time again that the broader segment includes many, many wines that have nothing to blush about.

And you finish by saying:
"I find it difficult to believe that both Belgian importers (as reported by Tim) and American importers (as reported by myself, David, and others) go and seek out the worst of Bordeaux".

While they may not seek the worst, they patently don't seek the elite! If "they certainly work hard to find and sell good wines from other regions" it is my belief they don't do the same in Bordeaux because they figure their customer base identifies "Bordeaux" with classified growths, and so they choose not to go out on a limb.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I've met you twice in New York, so the only solution to get to the bottom of this is for you to come over here!
I'll be glad to take a day or two off from work and ferry you around the Bordeaux that tourists and, indeed, many professionals know little or nothing about.

All the best,
Alex

They have now discovered the molecule that causes it and have recommended preventive measures).

This is astonishing news. Any link (in French is fine) or + info would be appreciated.

Oswaldo,

The results of the study by the Bordeaux Faculty of Enology are being released this week to coincide with the Bordeaux Wine Festival and the International Symposium of the Masters of wine, also being held in Bordeaux.

Premox:

In a nutshell, the main culprit in premoxed wines is soloton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sotolon

Glutathione (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutathione) provides a natural defence mechanism against the premature ageing of white wines.

Eight measures have proved useful in fighting premox

1- Ensuring that vines are sufficiently vigorous thanks to a nitrogen intake in keeping with their needs – Grapes with plenty of available nitrogen (> 200mg/L) always have a higher concentration of aroma precursors and glutathione, and a lower concentration of phenolic compounds. Excessive yields, drought conditions, competition from grass left to grow between the vine rows and superficial rooting are all factors in weakening vine growth and therefore in promoting premox in white wines.

2- Limiting the extraction of phenolic compounds during pressing to preserve glutathione – The number of times the cake is crumbled must be limited and the selection of juice at the end of pressing very strict.

3- Protecting must and wines efficiently by using inert gas and sulphur dioxide

4- Making sure that alcoholic fermentation takes place relatively quickly and is completely finished – This implies a level of must clarification adapted to the grape variety, a sufficient level of available nitrogen and just the right amount of oxygen during the phase when the yeast multiply.

5- Reducing the time lag before malolactic fermentation – At this stage of winemaking, the wine is not yet protected from oxidation by sulphur dioxide. Stirring lees or inoculating with malolactic bacteria can prove to be effective.

6- Ageing wines in as reductive an environment as possible by maintaining an efficient dose of free SO2, stirring the lees and the moderate use of new oak.

7- Limiting the dissolution of oxygen when preparing the wine for bottling After racking, fining and filtration, the wine is in a fragile state and must be transferred in an inert gas environment.

8- Choosing a closure that is suited to the wine.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Thanks, Alex.

Please note a typo in my previous post.

It was 1985 Montrose, NOT 2005 Montrose...

All the best,
Alex

I was wondering about the tired 2005!
Nice dinner.
Too bad about the Fieuzel. My luck with 1994-2002 white Bordeaux has been as bad as with Burg. Disappointing bottles of 94 HBB, 96 Laville HB, 01 La Louviere, etc.
Funny that their recs include stirring lees, as too much battonage was considered a possible cause in Burg. Also re your #2, some theorize that "too gentle" pressing could be a culprit. This again seems opposite.
So we know the molecule,but not the cause!

Pokes fire with stick:

http://content.corkd.com/2010/07/01/val ... oes-exist/

Curious on the opinions of the wines and places mentioned here.

Curious on the opinions of the wines and places mentioned here.

Each of those areas has some value wines, but you can't choose blindly. A few opinions based on US availability:

Dry wines from Sauternes. G might be $16, but R and Y are way more. Personally I’d prefer to concentrate on Graves/Pessac for white Bordeaux, as well as selected producers in Entre-deux-Mers or (other) Bordeaux Blanc for cheaper ones
.
Cotes de Castillon: This is probably my favorite value (under $15) area, some good choices (Ste Colombe, Cap de Faugeres, Ch. D’Aiguilhe, though last is getting pricier)
,
Saint Emilion satellites: I’ve had some ok satellites (including the St Andre-Corbin mentioned), but just never think they’re going to remind you a lot of a Figeac or Cheval Blanc. Light easy wines, but I'd seldom search out.

Lalande de Pomerol: Never had Roquebrune, but there are some good ones, generally heftier and more impressive to me than the St E satellites. A few to try might include La Fleur du Bouard, Chambrun, Grand Ormeau, Siarac (sp?) Tournefeille (Sp?), Bel Air. First few pretty modern, last couple fairly old school

Graves: There can be good value in whites like Graville-Lacoste, but I just don’t see many non-Pessac Graves reds. So no opinion

Entre-deux-Mers: Not a great batting average for me, but they’re so cheap one can usually take a chance

Not sure that these areas (especially the St Emilion satellites) offer better value than Cotes du Bourg or Fronsac, to name 2 other appellations.

Oswaldo,

The results of the study by the Bordeaux Faculty of Enology are being released this week to coincide with the Bordeaux Wine Festival and the International Symposium of the Masters of wine, also being held in Bordeaux.

Premox:

In a nutshell, the main culprit in premoxed wines is soloton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sotolon

Glutathione (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutathione) provides a natural defence mechanism against the premature ageing of white wines.

Eight measures have proved useful in fighting premox

1- Ensuring that vines are sufficiently vigorous thanks to a nitrogen intake in keeping with their needs – Grapes with plenty of available nitrogen (> 200mg/L) always have a higher concentration of aroma precursors and glutathione, and a lower concentration of phenolic compounds. Excessive yields, drought conditions, competition from grass left to grow between the vine rows and superficial rooting are all factors in weakening vine growth and therefore in promoting premox in white wines.

The competition from grass between rows is an interesting measure. This seems to be an area where there is much disagreement. I have read where others claim that there is no competition from "most" grasses and some even claim that they can increase nitrogen over a vineyard with no cover crop. As the measure specifically notes grass, was the intent all cover crops or just grass. It is well established that clover can fix nitrogen so I would assume it would be a benefit between the vine rows to help address the premox issue.

Brian,

That would be just grass, there are no cover crops here.

Green cover is used to consolidate the soil, enrich its biological life, prevent erosion on inclines and theoretically stimulate vines roots to sink deeper into the soil.

Like most things, of course, you can find people arguing for or against green cover...

Best regards,
Alex R.