Another wine prejudice?

Fellas and gals, how many times are we going to go through this nonsense?

http://www.wineloverspage.com/wineadvisor2/tswa20100416.php

We have one wine 'expert' in this country who is vociferously opposed to screw-caps on ANY wine. I think I recall him saying the Teflon (or whatever) lining on the cap is sure to give you cancer, so standing them up might reduce this possibility. He is also very opposed to the idea of wine shows where he considers that all of the judges and the judging process itself is fatally flawed so you can not read anything into a gold medal award. Not many wine drinkers who know anything about wine take much notice of him.

In NZ we are getting over 85% of wines under screwcap, including top end reds made for aging. Those that are not under screw cap are increasingly using Diam technical corks now. Natural cork usage is still on the decline. Some cork users have found that distributors in some countries will not buy a screw-capped bottle so some are bottled in a mixture of screw-caps and cork just so they can export to these countries. Then again, some of the super market chains in the UK, for example, insist on screw caps.

Fellas and gals, how many times are we going to go through this nonsense?

http://www.wineloverspage.com/wineadvisor2/tswa20100416.php

As long as the forum tolerates aging people like me who don't remember so good, and new members who don't have time for a bunch of archive searches.

And, my cloudy memory notwithstanding, is it possible that the questions here represent a slightly different...er...twist?

We have one wine 'expert' in this country who is vociferously opposed to screw-caps on ANY wine. I think I recall him saying the Teflon (or whatever) lining on the cap is sure to give you cancer, so standing them up might reduce this possibility. He is also very opposed to the idea of wine shows where he considers that all of the judges and the judging process itself is fatally flawed so you can not read anything into a gold medal award. Not many wine drinkers who know anything about wine take much notice of him.

In NZ we are getting over 85% of wines under screwcap, including top end reds made for aging. Those that are not under screw cap are increasingly using Diam technical corks now. Natural cork usage is still on the decline. Some cork users have found that distributors in some countries will not buy a screw-capped bottle so some are bottled in a mixture of screw-caps and cork just so they can export to these countries. Then again, some of the super market chains in the UK, for example, insist on screw caps.

Like I said to Carl, I'm not at the top of my cognitive game, but aren't we kind of talking about whether wine ages differently with a screwcap bottle down or up, and asking whether more air leaks in and out upright? And isn't the other issue whether someone is prejudiced for assuming that screwcapped bottles in general are more often meant for immediate drinking, regardless of how a Latour would age in a screwcapped bottle versus a corked (not talking about TCA) one?

I need to know more about the composition of the screwcap. Is it all metal? If so, what metals are incorporated? Is there a plastic lining it? If so, what kind of plastic? Is there an industry standard? I know cork is 100% cork, even if it's bad cork.

Well, I'll do something radical, and answer the question originally posed.

I think being able to see the wine label on verical bottles will definitely bias your decision about what wine to open. At least, I think it would bias me. Not being able to see exactly what bottle it is makes it easier to ignore it, and conversely, being able to immediately identify the wine makes it easier to grab.

Why don't you put some wines under cork in that vertical shelf of yours, and see what happens? if you are still reaching for screwcapped wines, then you have your answer.

What is the conventional wisdom about the glass stoppers (a question raised earlier in the post but never resolved) and aging? I find them to be a very elegant, if pricey (?) solution. But I have come across very little about how wines are meant to age with these. I think what little I have heard suggests that the wines do age, but do so more slowly and perhaps to less affect?

Specifically, I have a bunch of Weinbach Cuvee St. Catherine Rieslings under glass enclosure. My plan was to age them. Is this a bad idea?

What is the conventional wisdom about the glass stoppers (a question raised earlier in the post but never resolved) and aging? I find them to be a very elegant, if pricey (?) solution. But I have come across very little about how wines are meant to age with these. I think what little I have heard suggests that the wines do age, but do so more slowly and perhaps to less affect?

Specifically, I have a bunch of Weinbach Cuvee St. Catherine Rieslings under glass enclosure. My plan was to age them. Is this a bad idea?

Well, see, there's your problem: you put conventional and wisdom together!

Seriously, the basic feeling is pretty much that the "glass stopper" is a creative slant on the idea of using plastic (as in the or ring that is what actually seals the bottle, and not the stopper itself to perform the function, while using the image of glass to elevate the perception.

In other words, fiendishly clever distraction through brilliant marketing.

What is the conventional wisdom about the glass stoppers (a question raised earlier in the post but never resolved) and aging? I find them to be a very elegant, if pricey (?) solution. But I have come across very little about how wines are meant to age with these. I think what little I have heard suggests that the wines do age, but do so more slowly and perhaps to less affect?

Specifically, I have a bunch of Weinbach Cuvee St. Catherine Rieslings under glass enclosure. My plan was to age them. Is this a bad idea?

Well, see, there's your problem: you put conventional and wisdom together!

Seriously, the basic feeling is pretty much that the "glass stopper" is a creative slant on the idea of using plastic (as in the or ring that is what actually seals the bottle, and not the stopper itself to perform the function, while using the image of glass to elevate the perception.

In other words, fiendishly clever distraction through brilliant marketing.

Hoke,
I think that you're putting a very cynical slant on this particular closure. To an organic chemist, Vino-Loks look like nothing so much as a fire-polished ground glass stopper. Ground glass stoppers have been used historically in Port decanters, but do not provide an air tight seal, even when fire polished. To get an airtight seal on a tapered joint such as you find on a stopper, an O-ring of PTFE (a very impervious "rubber") is employed, such as you see in this photo:



We use joints like this on vacuum lines where they need to hold a seal when the interior pressure is as low as 2-3 micrometers Hg (where atmospheric pressure is 760,000 micrometers Hg), so I can attest to how strong a seal they form. If I want to store an air- or water-sensitive solution for a long time, I'll use a ground glass stopper fitted with an O-ring.

So, to me, the Vino-Lok is a simple extension of that idea. They're not using PTFE for the O-ring, I'd wager, but it still should provide a good, airtight seal for the long term.

Mark Lipton

Hoke, Hi...

As someone noted earlier on..."and here we go again".

I will argue for neither the efficiency or efficacy of the glass stopper but I will argue that to many it may well be more aesthetically appealing than the screwcap. And, dammit, aesthetics counts for much.

Best
Rogov

Ines,
The screwcap is primarily a marketing statement frrom the winery that the wine in the bottle is ready to drink as soon as you buy it. There may be some screwcap wines that will benefit from aging, like Aussie riesling, but they are not being sold to age.

As a generalisation - which is how it reads - both these statements are utterly, utterly wrong. The screwcap is not a marketing statement. It is a closure. It will be chosen by a winemaker for a number of reasons, but intending to convey "drink now" will only be one item in the list - and not the first. There are some very serious makers of wine in Australia, Germany, New Zealand - and a smaller number around the globe - who pursued screwcaps in spite of the marketing impression it gave,
As for the second statement, there are many screwcapped wines which will benefit from age. And many of them are sealed with screwcap in the expectation that it will aid the aging process. Indeed, it was the instance you cite - Oz rieslings, and their capacity to age - which provided the impetus for the relaunch of the screwcap in this country. And it was specifically the aging benefits that drove the change.
cheers,
Graeme

I need to know more about the composition of the screwcap. Is it all metal? If so, what metals are incorporated? Is there a plastic lining it? If so, what kind of plastic? Is there an industry standard? I know cork is 100% cork, even if it's bad cork.

I'm repeating this since no one commented on it. Maybe I'm an idiot and everyone on the planet but me knows the composition of the metal/plastic that comes in contact with the wine. And what the reaction will be. And if you don't, why is no one concerned about this?

I need to know more about the composition of the screwcap. Is it all metal? If so, what metals are incorporated? Is there a plastic lining it? If so, what kind of plastic? Is there an industry standard? I know cork is 100% cork, even if it's bad cork.

I'm repeating this since no one commented on it. Maybe I'm an idiot and everyone on the planet but me knows the composition of the metal/plastic that comes in contact with the wine. And what the reaction will be. And if you don't, why is no one concerned about this?

Sorry, Chef, I thought that someone had already answered that. There's an inert plastic liner inside the screwcap that is the only part that comes in contact with the wine. I don't know what plastic they use, but that''s what is varied to get the differing levels of oxygen ingress in screwcaps.

Mark Lipton

Mark and Daniel:

I'm certainly not arguing chemistry with you, Mark, nor aesthetics with you, Daniel.

I merely pointed out that the mechanism that creates the seal with the Vino-Lok is the plastic (in whatever form) o-ring. That is not being cynical; that is simply pointing out the reality. The glass is there solely because of aesthetic reasons ( to increase the marketability by making the average person believe that an apothecary glass is the stopper when the plastic is actually performing the job.

I'm not arguing the efficiency---I believe it is efficient. I'm not arguing the aesthetics---I believe it is aesthetically appealling. I'm merely pointing out that the Vino Lok is an excellent example of marketing through visual appeal and misdirection. Nothing more.

If Vino Lok was marketed as an excellent closure for wine through a plastic o-ring device, it would not sell. But marketed as a "glass stopper" (that, yes, looks very nice; that's the point), it sells. But it is still the plastic that seals the bottle.

I need to know more about the composition of the screwcap. Is it all metal? If so, what metals are incorporated? Is there a plastic lining it? If so, what kind of plastic? Is there an industry standard? I know cork is 100% cork, even if it's bad cork.

I'm repeating this since no one commented on it. Maybe I'm an idiot and everyone on the planet but me knows the composition of the metal/plastic that comes in contact with the wine. And what the reaction will be. And if you don't, why is no one concerned about this?

Sorry, Chef, I thought that someone had already answered that. There's an inert plastic liner inside the screwcap that is the only part that comes in contact with the wine. I don't know what plastic they use, but that''s what is varied to get the differing levels of oxygen ingress in screwcaps.

Mark Lipton

Thanks, Mark. I asked because of the BPA content in many of the plastics used to line canned foods. Wondering if anyone had considered that here.

Information touching on both the vertical/horiz. screwcap-bottle issue and the larger question of when to use screw closures (I may have mentioned this before on another thread, anyway I've posted it elsewhere): Paul Draper at Ridge Vineyards (a few minutes' travel from where I'm writing this -- too close for me not to pester those folks occasionally) in 2002 summarized in person, though offhand, what he had on the subject, and I made notes. Many winemakers were then grappling with horrific cork TCA contamination percentages at the time, ruining very good wines, and the subject of closures was hot. (Ridge itself had a stringent TCA quality-control program: new cork lots were sampled and processed to check for any TCA tendency, via a reliable method.)

He mentioned data from France, and limited experimental data to date at Ridge, supporting a conclusion that the small but nonzero air exchange through conventional corks may be important in the flavor development of long-term wines like his Ridge Monte Bello Cabernet. As distinct from wines vinified, as many are now, to acquire most of their final flavor before bottling (he cited deliberate aeration as well as steps in the forming of the wine to make them more accessible young). For those shorter-aging wines, an airtight closure would (I gather) typically be indistinguishable from cork in what is finally experienced in the glass. He referred also to experimentation at Ridge with other closures such as plastic corks, which he said maintained an airtight seal and did show less of the desirable long-term flavor evolution. He was hoping at the time (2002) to run experiments with screw tops. Cited current evidence from overseas [Aus. and/or NZ] that the screw-topped bottles, if stored upright, are less airtight than the plastic corks and might therefore be closer to real cork than airtight synthetic corks are, in aging effect, an interesting angle. (I gather from Mark L's comment that this process is now deliberately controlled.)

Summary: This subject has at least three distinct "dimensions:" Aging implications of airtight vs. non-airtight closures in general; some synthetic closures being, even deliberately, slightly gas-permeable; and evidence that vertical vs horizontal storage affectedthat very slight gas permeability.

I'm repeating this since no one commented on it. Maybe I'm an idiot and everyone on the planet but me knows the composition of the metal/plastic that comes in contact with the wine. And what the reaction will be. And if you don't, why is no one concerned about this?

Chef, you're not an idiot, and this concerns me, too.

Where there's no ullage in the bottle, or it's being stored horizontally.

For all the wines I've purchased with a screwcap closure, there has been a small amount of air space conveniently preventing the wine from contacting the plastic or metal of the enclosure. So as long as the enclosure does its job of keeping an airtight seal, and as long as I store the bottles vertically (as is recommended with such enclosures), contamination should be a non-issue.

I've been bitten too many times by bad corks. I consider screwcaps a definite improvement, provided that they stay airtight for a long time (20+ years).

-Paul W.

Hi Max,
Good to hear from you. Whether or not a screw cap liner is “air-tight” or not has very little to do with the bottle being stored vertical or horizontal. I think of the liner material as a laminate or a “sandwich” (just think of a very thin piece of plywood). One layer has to create a seal where the liner makes contact with the glass to prevent the wine from seeping out. The other layers must be capable of compressing so that a “force” can be maintained so that the “sealing layer” can maintain its seal. (This is assuming of course that the female threads of the screw cap itself and the male threads on the bottle can “hold”). There are several patents out there now that are designing these laminate liners using different material and different techniques, which actually can control oxygen ingress into the bottle.

Salute

Greetings Victor.

... Whether or not a screw cap liner is “air-tight” or not has very little to do with the bottle being stored vertical or horizontal...

Appreciate the comments (I'm actually somewhat acquainted with laminates and composite materials). Maybe I need to clarify: I didn't assert a personal conviction that vertical storage affected air-tightness. I wouldn't have thought so either, but it is not an issue of conviction or speculation. (This subject sees more than enough of those.)

Rather, Paul Draper mentioned particular industry research in the Antipodes demonstrating such an effect. Paul is pretty reliable, but is not on this forum. Therefore if you, or anyone here, is familiar with that specific (and provocative) research and can elaborate on it, I'd be extremely grateful.

-- Max