WTN: Piemonte

Hoke
Just one thought on the concept of a refund. Would it not depend on one's relationship with the retailer?

If I'd just popped into a shop, selected the bottle myself, then been upset at not liking it or it not being typical/varietal... well that's just tough luck.

However if I'd popped into my favourite merchant, who'd recommended the wine to me, saying it's a great riesling and as I'm such a fan of Mosel rieslings, this would be right up my street. Then perhaps I might pass comment next time I was in, that the wine wasn't at all like they described. I know of at least one local merchant who would refund without question in such a situation - as he's utterly focused on repeat business and building up a relationship with his customers.

Personally I don't even return corked bottles (though I really should). To date I've only ever returned 2 bottles (one fizzy through unintended secondary fermentation and the other through a seriously leaky screwcap), so whilst there might be a legitimate reason for a refund, I seriously doubt whether I myself would be asking for one.

regards

Ian

Ian:

Sure, everything's situational, but simply buying wine, finding out you don't care for it, or are disappointed, is no grounds for return. Whether casually or, as in the case David cited, pursuing a wine like the holy grail for a long while, then being disappointed in it and feeling his time was wasted. Again, that's just disappointment and it's neither the retailer's nor the producer's fault...it's just David's disappointment. (But he already said he was indulging in hyperbole because of said disappointment, so it's a moot point.)

In the theoretical case you cite...that of a trusted retailer urging you to buy a bottle which you then didn't like...I thought long and hard. And the answer is, No, I don't think you should ask for a refund. But I also think a good retailer (especially one that knew you) would offer you the refund or exchange for another bottle under the circumstances.

What I would do in that circumstance is when I was next in the shop I would comment that I really didn't care for that wine he reccoed all that much---either I had a bad bottle or it just wasn't to my taste (in the case of this Germano it demonstrably was NOT a bad bottle, just not what someone expected; others liked it). And that's all I'd say. If the retailer then offered restitution, I'd take it. If he didn't, I wouldn't push the issue.

True, I'd be more careful about following that person's reccos in future. But I'd just put it down to different tastes and let it go at that. Certainly wouldn't ask for a refund. The only....only...way I would expect a refund is if the retailer explicitly said, "Buy this on my recco. If you don't like it for any reason, bring it back and I'll give you your money back." Then, yes.

As to the original controversy of this thread...as I said, I'm disinterested. But not uninterested. Since I have no emotional stake here, I can see both sides. I can see Oliver's pov, from being very involved at the winery and understanding the entire process of the wine, then being puzzled by what seemed like either contradictory or confusing statements on the wine. I can also see David's side of investing so much time in the hunt only to be disappointed in the wine.

I can also see the side...let's say facet to keep things clear---that different people reacted in different ways to this wine. Some liked it (even though they couldn't 'pin it down' to a variety; some thought it was merely okay; other's didn't like it Seems to me like the guy who reacted the most was the guy who had the most invested in it (both money and wanting it to be a big hit); so it became an emotional issue. Thus, David and Oliver both had emotions getting in the way of objectivity.

My take? Wasn't there, as someone pointed out. So I don't know. What I do know though, is that wines don't always conform to what we want them to be. And I also know that if I was trying a Riesling from the Piemonte, I wouldn't expect totally classic markers of what I thought Riesling should be (different place); and I would be hesitant to ascribe flavors to either stylistic touches or manipulation that might...or might not...be there. That's just supposition. (Hey, I once watched a highly respected winemaker taste an Aussie old vine Marsanne and go on and on about the gentle oak nuances blah blah blah, and how the winemaker really handled the oak well blah blah blah. Not a touch of oak every went near that wine. Even highly professional people don't always get everything right, and let their minds lead them to where they think they want to go.)

I've had Riesling from the Piemonte. Had even more from the not-too-distant southern Lombardia region of the Oltrepo Pavese. Some of the Oltrepo Pavese was pretty darned impressive, but not in the same way that Austrian or German Rieslings--or even the Alto Adige Rieslings--might be. Different place; and I subscribe to the theory that Riesling, in particular, is highly reflective of terroir (both geographic and human).

Wish I had been there. Would have, apparently, been very interesting.

If only people who tasted the same bottle can post, this will be a very quiet forum.
Personally, if someone posts about oak in a wine, I think the actual cooperage (or lack of it) is valuable information. Ditto whether someone has found trapped CO2 to be common in the wine before, if there is speculation about secondary fermentation in bottle (usually that is far less innocuous than what is described here, since most people described it as pleasant, liked it, or would buy it)
People taste different things. Apparently even from this bottle- several references to green apples (from which malic acid takes its name) yet others thought it went through malo.
None of us are wrong about what we taste, but anyone who tastes blind often is going to sometimes be wrong about the conclusions they draw from their sensations.

Well there you go, next time I get apples, and lemon in a lush nose and some oak in the flavours with what may seem to be malo, and an oily feel. I should think Riesling. Valuable information.

David,

You have a choice here. You can either accept that the wine couldn't have those characteristics, and chalk it up to experience, or you can argue the point, which doesn't make any sense. If I was you I'd chalk it up to experience. Unless you already know everything about wine and winetasting, in which case you're far ahead of me, learning is good.

Incidentally, citrus and green apple notes are entirely typical of Riesling, and Alsatian Rieslings sometimes have an oily mouthfeel. This wine didn't taste like a number of the classic European Riesling types, but of course it doesn't, it's from an entirely different region. That's a far cry from not showing varietal character.

Anyone in the Bay Area: if there's a jeebus in the offing I would be pleased to bring a bottle of the aforementioned Riesling and you can judge for yourselves. It's planted on a steep, limestoney hillside at about 1700 feet by a Barolo producer who is crazy for German Riesling and thought the soil, elevation and southern exposure might work. Although the vines are still young, in my opinion he was right. (He also makes 'Alta Langa' classic method sparkling wine from this vineyard, 36 months on the lees, I'll bring a bottle of that too.)

Well there you go, next time I get apples, and lemon in a lush nose and some oak in the flavours with what may seem to be malo, and an oily feel. I should think Riesling. Valuable information.

David,

You have a choice here. You can either accept that the wine couldn't have those characteristics, and chalk it up to experience, or you can argue the point, which doesn't make any sense. If I was you I'd chalk it up to experience. Unless you already know everything about wine and winetasting, in which case you're far ahead of me, learning is good.

.

A wise man once said "if you find yourself in a deep hole, quit digging"

One or both of us should stop digging Oliver and I find myself without a shovel so.....

Anyone in the Bay Area: if there's a jeebus in the offing I would be pleased to bring a bottle of the aforementioned Riesling and you can judge for yourselves. It's planted on a steep, limestoney hillside at about 1700 feet by a Barolo producer who is crazy for German Riesling and thought the soil, elevation and southern exposure might work. Although the vines are still young, in my opinion he was right. (He also makes 'Alta Langa' classic method sparkling wine from this vineyard, 36 months on the lees, I'll bring a bottle of that too.)

My two cents are just two cents, but I have a feeling that if Oliver, David, Bill and the others were having this discussion in person, instead of the binary zeroes and ones world of the internet, this conversation wouldn't have taken an unpleasant turn, as I don't think you gentlemen are as far apart as tossing quotes back and forth makes you appear to be.

I've only tasted the 2007 version of the wine in question, but it was a delicious riesling from my recollection (I look forward to opening it with friends in the next few weeks, as I've been saving it for a friend who doesn't fancy the sweeter side of riesling, but is willing to humor me in my attempt to introduce fantastic dry rieslings to him).

Tasting the 2008 in comparative perspective amongst other rieslings could indeed be a very interesting experience--but one I wouldn't want to partake in to 'settle' the debate at hand, which, quite frankly appears to be more heat than light. But just to taste a wine that sparked debate among wine lovers and another year's taste for what had been my first introduction to riesling from Piemonte? Yeah, I'd be up for that.

Full disclosure, I do work part-time now for the shop that sells the 2007 version of the wine--but I'll probably be buying the last 2007 on the shelf for me!

Keith. Well spoken. I've said what I think I need to say here. I hated the wine. I wanted it to be good. I drove a couple of hours out of my way to pick it up at K and L. Paid 27 dollars for it and then drove it back to Vancouver. I agree that if Oliver and I were in the same room we wouldn't have had such a contentious discussion. That is more or less my point. How does he know how this bottle showed on this night.

I hope that my next experience with a Riesling from this area is more enjoyable and I'm sure it will be if I can find the Vajra wine Oliver speaks of. I have found all of their wines I've tried to be correct, if unexciting. As for the wines of Germano I will avoid them as I find their customer service to be a little lacking. I don't expect a refund but I also don't expect someone who represents them to insult me in this forum.