Edmunds St. John recommendations

I've got to wonder about someone who thinks that Steve's wines taste like Rioja, since they are about as true an expression of Syrah as I've had outside of the N Rhone.

To be fair, missing a wine in a blind tasting where *everything* is on the table (I guess new-school Rioja on this wine) is very different than a characterization of a house style (Steve's wines taste like new school Rioja).

Further, the tasters in question (the MW crowd after the Loyd Flatt auction last month) are the best I've ever had the pleasure of tasting with. They nail wines blind one after the next, are well known and even credentialed for it, and I see them do it all the time (not that I personally put much stock in blind tasting, I'm just sayin'). This being said, for whatever reasons, per my story above obviously they were ultimately wrong on this one. So given this I'm plenty happy to leave open the possibility that it was simply a wine out of their (and my) wheelhouse--blind tasting is tricky business after all--or even that we just all totally missed it. (Once the wine was reveled, it was 100% clear to me that it was Syrah, for instance.) This being said, and with a *relatively* high degree of confidence based in the brilliance of these tasters (and also my own far less reliable impressions)--but tempered with a dose of humility owing to the difficulty of claiming certainty about such things(!)--I'm sticking with oak no more than 2 years old and more likely mostly 1 year old oak. And a good amount of it, too.

I feel though like I've tripped a bit of a mine. As I've said from the beginning, if nothing else I'm more than happy to accept the far more knowledgeable opinion of this board that my own experiences were either A. uncharacteristic or B. a misinterpretation. Indeed, I very much look forward to being proven wrong![/quote]

For 25 years I've been explaining to people that I have never owned a stick of new oak, and that, in fact, the average age of barrels I've used over that time has been, year in and year out, well over 10 years. Let me see if it makes any difference to repeat it. NO NEW OAK, EVER. NOT ONCE. NO OAK LESS THAN FOUR YEARS OLD, EVER, NOT ONCE, and that was two barrels in a 24 barrel blend for which the average age of barrels was 12-15 years. And the barrel size, in 22 of those 25 years has been 500L, more than twice the size of the typical-for-the-CA-producer barrique. If somebody tastes oak in the wines, God bless them. Maybe they need to brush their teeth.

Well, there it is! Touche!

Well, there it is! Touche!

Don't say we didn't warn you, Ed!

Mark Lipton

I've never noticed an oak signature on any of Steve's wines, but YMMV.

Neither have I. It's one of the things I appreciate about Steve's wines.

They nail wines blind one after the next, are well known and even credentialed for it, and I see them do it all the time (not that I personally put much stock in blind tasting, I'm just sayin').

Ed,

I’m not trying to start a discussion on the skill of blind tasters, but I would love to put the group that you tasted with to a controlled test. The data from “experienced” (not professional) tasters that I have seen shows that, even with pre-tasting the wines, ability to identify producer and vintage is not statistically different from random guessing for statistically significant sample sizes. Even ability to identify varietals, such as Rioja versus Syrah, is only around 50%. I fear that highly accurate blind tasters are an urban myth. It would be interesting to put true experts to the test.

Steve - So, are you saying that you don't use new oak? I just want to make sure that I'm clear.

Well, I don't have much credibility on the issue now (!), but honestly they really are amazing at this. I mean, you can always trick them (this is easy), but if you put some fairly typical examples in front of them they'll usually get it (within broad categories) or at least close. For instance, I recall them, before the ESJ, they guessed and were correct about a Furmint!

They are most certainly "professional" and not just "experienced." The fact that they (we) we so far off on this one makes me wonder (saving face! saving face!) if we were given the wrong wine. The wines were being poured in at a small wine geek bar in NYC, and the waiter had made mistakes on some food items... (but it was definitely a Syrah, so....)

I’m not trying to start a discussion on the skill of blind tasters, but I would love to put the group that you tasted with to a controlled test. The data from “experienced” (not professional) tasters that I have seen shows that, even with pre-tasting the wines, ability to identify producer and vintage is not statistically different from random guessing for statistically significant sample sizes. Even ability to identify varietals, such as Rioja versus Syrah, is only around 50%. I fear that highly accurate blind tasters are an urban myth. It would be interesting to put true experts to the test.

That's not been my experience with experienced tasters. Tasting double blind, the better folks - a combination of pros and veteran amateurs- in my SOBER group do pretty well (though admittedly with the occasional spectacular failure!) at region/variety, then decently with vintage. Producer is harder, so many possibilities, but sometimes right on. Recently I was feeling smug for correctly guessing Chablis (no one heard host confirm I was correct) when John said "well, it's Raveneau but I can't be sure of vineyard." Damn.

I'm nowhere near as good as others, but do better than statistical probability single blind at least! Double blind the endless possibilities mostly flummox me. Occasionally I do better.

Now, the sniff and a sip and guessing "ah, the 78 Haut Brion" is really rare to the point of being a fluke. That's why I think Parker's French TV story is a joke.

By the way, Rioja is not a variety.

[David M. Bueker]

I've had the pleasure of dining/drinking with a couple of MWs, and it's not that they are better tasters, but that they have likely been exposed to a wider varity of wines & thus have built up an extensive mental database. Related to that is the required discipline of working through a course of study where one tastes wines & has to remember them as part of one's study. Most of us want to remember the wines, but don't have to. But none of htis means that an MW or many MWs can't be fooled into thinking they are drinking one thing when they are drinking something else.

As for the blind tasting tricks, if one has tasted several examples of something distinctive & out of the ordinary (e.g. Furmint) then it becomes rather easier than might be expected to pick that out in the future.

As for the blind tasting tricks, if one has tasted several examples of something distinctive & out of the ordinary (e.g. Furmint) then it becomes rather easier than might be expected to pick that out in the future.

Gewurztraminer and Muscat are probably the easiest for me to get blind.
Heavy oak signatures of course make varietal guesses harder.

Dale,

It would be great to test your SOBER group under controlled conditions. I believe that with pre-tasting including up front disclosure, and blind service in flights of seven, a group of at least ten tasters would get producer of a single varietal correct about 30% of the time, and would get vintage for a single producer-varietal correct only about 20% of the time. For a flight of seven mixed reds I think that they would get varietal correct only about 50% of the time. I may be wrong, but I know how I would bet. Not that I think that they are bad tasters, just that they are operating within human limitations.

What's this thread about again? Oh,...never mind...

[David M. Bueker]

Sam,

What do you mean by "pre-tasting including up front disclosure, and blind service in flights of seven". Are you giving people the chance to taste the wines first then be served them blind?

I'm just trying to understand your experiement & also how you came up with your proposed percentages.

Steve,

If you read this, can you tell anywhere I can get your wines within a radius of about 400km from Brussels? That would cover Paris, London, Amsterdam and Frankfurt.

Sam,
I have no idea how group would do in your conditions, I'll only comment on what I have observed. I'll post the guesses from last time I hosted below.
Couple members couldn't make it. We had 8 at table, for most wines there were 6 people trying to figure it out (Betsy was sitting with us but not commenting on wine). On one wine (63 Warres) Mark wasn't allowed to comment/guess because he knew we had both recently bought this and I had planned to include in this tasting.
I decanted in basement, so no bottle clues. They could obviously see if red or white, but no clues to region. I made no comments during any discussion, but confirmed or denied any full fledged guesses.
There's always an element of social engineering in these things, but none of these folks have ever toured my cellar.Based on my previous times hosting, they probably expected a preponderance of 1970-1990 Bordeaux (at least 2 flights in each of previous 3 times I hosted).
These weren't controlled experimental conditions, but I'd say that results were far from what one would expect from random guessing.
As noted, sometimes we have spectacular fails (Craig gave us a flight this winter of 60s Cru Beaujolais, no one got it until after a whole lot of guesses)

SOBER at Dale's House 12/4/09

1997 Philipponnat "Clos des Goisses" Champagne Brut.'
not blind

Flight One
1989 Trimbach "Cuvee Frederic Emile" Riesling Vendange Tardive 
I got to give Gilman credit. His guesses in order (with me confirming after each one) were "Alsace", "Vendange Tardive", "Trimbach" and "1989"
1990 Trimbach "Cuvee Frederic Emile" Riesling Vendange Tardive 
Everyone got Riesling, but several thought this German. Once I said no THEN they made it to Alsace, and Dan got 1990 CFE VT


1959 Marques de Murrieta Ygay Gran Reserva. 
Not blind


Flight 2 
1985 Phelps "Backus" Cabernet Sauvignon 
1987 Phelps "Eisele" Cabernet Sauvignon 
Craig quickly said both wines from same producer, I confirmed. John went Cal Cab. 
Phelps was I believe 2nd or 3rd guess (Mark). Vintage guesses were from 78 to 91 (including 85 and 87)


Flight 3 
1985 Prunotto "Rabaja" Barbaresco 
1985 Marcarini "Brunate" Barolo 
Initial guesses from nose centered on Cabernet, and then Sangiovese. I said no. Then they were on Nebbiolo, they quickly got which was Barbaresco and which Barolo, and vintage. No one guesses Prunotto, someone got Marcarini in an early guess

Flight 4 
1971 Renato Ratti "Marcenasco" Barolo 
1971 F. Rinaldi Barolo 
Mark said Nebbiolo, group agreed, didn't get producers until after many guesses


Flight 5 
1983 Drouhin "Clos des Mouches" Beaune 
Clearly Burgundy. I said it was a much maligned vintage, and '83 was quickly 
guessed (can't remember if 1st or 2nd guess). John went Pommard - I said no- and then Beaune, and got the CdM in 2nd or 3rd guess. .
1989 Drouhin Charmes-Chambertin 
Everyone guesses Burgundy, no one guessed vineyard. After CdM confirmed someone got Drouhin


Flight 6 
1963 Warres Vintage Port 
Mark and I had each gotten this at a good price recently from Pops, so he wasn't allowed guesses. I think initial guesses were all 70s port, but overall they got vintage quickly (producer, not so fast).

1972 Mayacamas Late Harvest Zinfandel 
It was kinda funny because at first Mark thought this was the port, and had a "uh oh I own this?" look on his face. Several people thought 
it was port, but then Craig said late harvest Cali Cab from 70s. Pretty close! 

What's this thread about again? Oh,...never mind...

Greg,
thread drift rules! See, you get credit for a long thread, long after you bought your bottles!

Seriously , while I appreciate a lot of the features of this software, part of me misses the threading of the old WLDG. One could ignore tangents they were not interested in, harder in this software.

Tim; find a place where you can hop on a plane to the US! Not so easy at the moment.

Hi David and Dale,

Here is a rough proposal for a blind tasting protocol:

I propose that the subject wines be presented in random order with varietal, producer, and vintage made known to tasters before the blind tasting begins. No notes allowed. The blind tasting would then consist of a flight of seven wines, of the same varietal, and similar region (e.g. Bordeaux) from different producers. Vintage should be within a few years of each other, but does not necessarily have to be exactly the same. The tasters would be asked to identify the producer of the wines.

The second blind flight would be a single varietal, from the same producer, but from different vintages. The tasters would be asked to identify the vintage of each wine. The seven wines should be chosen from a span of 15 sequential vintage years. In other words, no 1947 Las Cases up in the same flight as a 2005 Las Cases. The third blind flight would then be seven different red varietals. No blends allowed. The tasters would be asked to identify the varietal.

The chance of getting any individual wine right by random guessing is about 14% (1 in 7) for each flight, since the sample population has been made known to the tasters. My hypothesis is that experienced tasters will have a success rate of about 2x random guessing for producer, and about 1.5x random guessing for vintage. Varietal identification should be about a coin flip. Those numbers are based on data from a few blind tastings I have attended in the past. For the group of ten tasters I would expect them to get producer correct 21 times, vintage correct 14 times and varietal correct 35 times from sample groups of 70 per flight. Note that I have never taken data for expert level MW type tasters. They could blow my hypothesis out of the water.

The methodology should be as fair as possible, and not set up to fool, or favor the tasters.

PS: Wines should not be anomalous, or flawed, and should be served at the same temperature… yadda-yadda. Also, I’m not accounting for lack of replacement in the statistics above, so all you stat wizards out there stand down.

Greg,
thread drift rules! See, you get credit for a long thread, long after you bought your bottles!

Seriously , while I appreciate a lot of the features of this software, part of me misses the threading of the old WLDG. One could ignore tangents they were not interested in, harder in this software.

I am enjoying both topics in this thread!

What's this thread about again? Oh,...never mind...

BUY EDMUNDS ST JOHN WINE IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!! Is this what you were talking about Steve?

Oh, that's just so crass... ( )

[David M. Bueker]

Oh, that's just so crass... ( )

Ain't that the truth. The font size wasn't nearly big enough. Try this:

BUY EDMUNDS ST JOHN WINE IMMEDIATELY!!!

The sale of ESJ wines is supply limited, not demand limited. Ship it and they will buy.