WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

While I love great wine in most of its incarnations, great (or even good) Burgundy is amazing in how it draws us like moths to the (pocketbook) flame.

I just visited Robert Parker's twitter page today for the first time, to see if it could really be true that he tweeted that those who don't like big Barossa Shiraz are the "anti- flavor wine elite." Yep, he said it. But equally amazing was something he said a few days ago re Pinot Noir
" normally this grape produces the most over-priced wine from planet earth, and the one with the most snob appeal"
There is certainly plenty of overpriced PN (Burgundian and otherwise). But is there really more snob appeal that the Screaming Eagles, Harlans, Pegua Capo, Pavie? I don't think it's snobbism that leads so many people to gravitate more and more to Burgundy as they spend more time around wine.

Hmmm... It's gratifying (in a way) to know that I've graduated from being merely a member of the "wine Taliban" to now being among the "anti-flavor elite." I'll just have to go down to the cellar and pull out one of those "low brow CdP wannabe" wines.

Snobbily yours,
Mark Lipton

Hoke,

Surely, one cannot say that a fine Burgundy is "better" than a Bordeaux of a comparable level.
Or vice versa!

Heck, you prefer Burgundy, simple as that... even if your post implies that if great growth prices in Bordeaux had not gone outtasite, your eye night never have wandered...

Also, all of us tend to like what we're used to.
I can remember when I first came to Bordeaux from the Napa Valley. I thought the wines had lovely aromas, but that they lacked "stuffing".
Now I find the California wines are virile, but lack elegance and digestibility.
Go figure...

Best regards,
Alex R.

No, Burgundy is not "better" than Bordeaux. Just different. And thank goodness for that, huh?

Alex, even without the prices, my palate started wandering. Originally, I was taken with Bordeaux, yes. Partially because that was what I was told was supposed to be the supreme expression of wine; it was all the rage then (and yes, it sure helped that I could get the First Growths at astonishingly reasonable--in comparison to now---prices). And I stayed with Cabernet (Merlot then was considered nothing but a strictly secondary blending grape, and there were few to be had, and Petrus was considered an anomaly) for a while, through the California explosion.

But---as a personal preference and not in my professional role---early on I started 'gravitating' towards wines that were acid-driven rather than tannic. Didn't fully realize it at the time, but that is what was happening, and I see it clearly in retrospect.

Mind you, I don't shy away from Cabernet, and certainly not from Bordeaux. And if you offer me a well-aged version, I won't hesitate to drink it and enjoy it immensely. And with some foods, Cabernet is still King.

But, yes, my preferences have shifted in general, it's true.

Another interesting aspect is that while I've steadily lost interest in most Chardonnays, and almost never seek them out anymore for myself...I still quite enjoy Burgundian whites. Yet, while my love of Sauvignon Blanc has grown immensely over the years, I haven't been overly drawn to Bordeaux blancs. Go figure, eh? (Although of late I've found some intriguing and compelling ones...even some that aren't ridiculously priced. )

ALL: But all of this actually leads me to a more serious question: why is it that Pinot Noir is, to me, a much more satisfying, rewarding, sensually and intellectually stimulating, wine than Bordeaux?

Well, there are some would say that you've finally grown up(!). But seriously, a good Burgundy hits the heart, and to me is not an intellectual exercise the way some Bordeaux are. I like and appreciate both, but I feel there one can find better Burgundy values out there than Bordeaux, since more of it across all levels comes here, whereas there are many smaller chateaux which never make it here (here, I'm thinking of the Peybonhomme that Dale mentioned and others like it), we see more of upper-end Bordeaux. I taste and drink from all over, so I am never only drinking from one region for an extended period of time, but Burgundy (reds, not as attached to the whites), Rhone and Italy (all over) are wines I could not live without.

Alas, American importers do not go far off the beaten track and whatever you say or do, people confuse the great growths with Bordeaux whereas they only represent ***5%*** of production.

Of course there are many good value Bordeaux, it's just that few importers bring them into the US.

In the affordable category, Bordeaux beats Burgundy hands down in terms of quality-price ratio.

As you go up the scale, it's a different story...

Best regards,
Alex R.

Of course there are many good value Bordeaux, it's just that few importers bring them into the US.

In that case, Alex, and sorry to be self-absorbed here...but it doesn't matter how many good value Bordeaux there are if the US market doesn't have access to them. If I can't find them, if I can't buy them, they're not good value.

And I know that you've always put the onus on those nasty US importers for willfully not seeking out and finding anything off "the well beaten path". But I know a little about the US importing system, and I can say with some assurance that if there is a good value deal from Bordeaux somebody is going to be looking for a way to capitalize on that. Unless, of course, Bordeaux has not done a good job of promoting itself in that wise, or they're not being cooperative, or there are barriers to the business.

If people like Salomon and Theise and countless others can bring in the most obscure wines from the most obscure regions and make them commercially viable...and Bordeaux is such an overwhelming attraction, why isn't any of that action going to Bordeaux, and why isn't an entrepreneur absolutely carving out a niche? Or is it that the American public doesn't rally to buy those wines?

(Not being combative here, please note. Just telling you what I see, and asking you questions. And I suspect the problem is in part the American importers playing it safe, in part the inability of the Bordelais to get their collective act together, and in part the limited saleability of the wines to the American population...and that largely due to so many wines from so many places available to fill that taste void.)

Love burgundy the best, it's sensual. Love bordeaux it's more John Wayneish. But the best bottle of red wine I've had in years was a 83 Hermitage from Chave. Hoke will know the people I drank this bottle with in NY last October, Joe Daught-Sasha, Chris Coad, Lisa C. Brad Kane. We savored the aroma, drank a little together, silence for a few moments and then Sasha exclaimed my God that's too good to be real. These are people who I have known for years and if anything they are jaded by drinking a lot of good wine often. We drank with only animal sounds uttering from our lips. I said nothing at first even though I was terribly impressed from the first sip. After all I had sent this bottle from CA a couple of weeks ago previous to this evening. My first thought was I furnished this bottle and it's fabulous so I'm probably prejudiced. I was thinking have I ever drank a bottle of burgundy or bordeaux I liked better, or for that matter any red wine? Not that I can remember, at least not at this moment.

Hoke,

You wrote:
"In that case, Alex, and sorry to be self-absorbed here...but it doesn't matter how many good value Bordeaux there are if the US market doesn't have access to them. If I can't find them, if I can't buy them, they're not good value".

Agree 100%.
Sad, but true.

However, I disagree with:

"But I know a little about the US importing system, and I can say with some assurance that if there is a good value deal from Bordeaux somebody is going to be looking for a way to capitalize on that".

The majority can't be bothered and want an easy sell. They are not willing to invest the time, energy and (in some ways) money to promote wines that don't have a ready-made market.
In their defense, the château system is double-edged. If you come across an absolute gem of a Côtes de Castillon, let's say, the production is just too plain small to build a "brand" on the American market.

The problem in the US is that people think of great growths when they think of Bordeaux as opposed to the other affordable Bordeaux wines that other major markets buy in large quantities. This confusion goes back a long way and is very hard to shake off.
Same situation in Australia.

I appreciate your comment:

"And I suspect the problem is in part the American importers playing it safe, in part the inability of the Bordelais to get their collective act together, and in part the limited saleability of the wines to the American population...and that largely due to so many wines from so many places available to fill that taste void.)"

Neither am I wishing to be combattive. If you came here, I would be glad to organize a tasting of readily available wines selling at modest prices (10-30 euros) and let you draw your own conclusions.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Alex, I will more than happily let you arrange a tasting when I get to Bordeaux (whenever that may be *sigh*). Maybe with our mutual friends Eve Lejeune and Randy Resnick?

But you really don't have to sell me on the other-than-great-growths...or even the Cru Bourgeois. Years ago, when I was a buyer I did some extremely lucrative business for my chain by seeking out and buying as many of the "petite chateaux" Bordeaux as I could find. And there were plenty. All great bargains too.

Even in that time of the onslaught of the 'fighting varietals' at $5--7, I had bunkers of Bordeaux, most for under or around $10, and they were selling quite well. Unfortunately, it was about that time that the prices went up---I was told it was from the Bordeaux side, but I suspect it was from the importer side as well---and with that increase, most of that business simply evaporated.

I asked one supplier why they would raise prices when they knew it would drastically impact sales. The answer was, "It's Bordeaux. They don't want to be seen as cheap."

Hoke,

Had dinner with Randy and Evelyne on Saturday...

Prices have not gone up in a big way for the lesser wines of Bordeaux. In fact, I'd be surprised if they have kept pace with inflation!
Please tell me what a decent (not special) premium wine costs in California these days.
I can find very good wines at 10-15 euros (retail) here.
Is that expensive?
Dale mentioned one on another thread that I think is a fine example: Ch. La Grolet in the Côtes de Bourg.

You wrote:
"I asked one supplier why they would raise prices when they knew it would drastically impact sales. The answer was, "It's Bordeaux. They don't want to be seen as cheap."
I think this supplier may have been feeding you a line...
That sort of snootiness is, alas, not unknown with the grands seigneurs. But not the little, affordable guys!:

All the best,
Alex

Alex, 10--15 Euro would convert to $14--20 USD (Currently a 0.37 advantage for the Euro).

While that's certainly not a bad price point, it also eliminates a massive segment of the American wine buying population. It's also the most competitive price point in the market.

Another point is that in the mass-volume market, all the little producers have trouble competing, because they A) don't individually have big volumes, and B) don't have the cachet of brand recognition and familiarity. (I overcame that by not depending on specific brands/labels and simply pushing a large aggregation of Bordeaux wines within the same price point range). So, yes, it can be done---if a retailer and some suppliers want to go to that trouble.

Problem is, the mass retailers will tell you flat out: it is not considered their responsibility to build a brand and do the work for them. Most of the big retailers simply want to harvest a brand's equity, not work to build it. Independents and highly entrepreneurial retailers are of course different in their outlook and efforts.

I appreciate your--or actually, the Bordelaise---quandary, Alex, and an answer is not easily arrived at. It would take a well-funded and effective campaign (akin to, say the upswell of Spanish wine in the US market) to put Bordeaux back on track, and I haven't seen either the will, the effectiveness, or the money to make that happen.

And the pity is....the time is right for Bordeaux to take back its TOTAL heritage, and not just the dominance of the Classified Growths. Those top wines are actually poisoning the market right now (witness the Diageo debacle of Bordeaux eroding confidence in the top rankers).

A smart marketing campaign right now to push the Bordeaux---not on an individual brand level, but on an aggregate group level---would be a brilliant move right now. If it worked.

And yes, Ch. La Grolet was indeed one of the leaders of my modestly priced pack of Bordeaux waaaaay back in the early 1980s.

They should just buy back the Gallo pinot, tack on a petit chateau label and sell it back to the Menckenian public as "Two Euro Eric."

They should just buy back the Gallo pinot, tack on a petit chateau label and sell it back to the Menckenian public as "Two Euro Eric."

Cynic. Accurate, but a cynic.

While as mentioned I like the La Grolet/Peybonhomme line, and have some other under $20 Bdx I buy, the reality is that most of the under $25 Bdx I see is a risky gamble. Alex always blames the importers, but certainly there seem to be importers finding Rhones, Loires, and even Burgundies in that range that one can depend on. Part of the problem in my opinion is the vast oceans of dreck Bdx and Bdx Sup AC that have been thrown at us - makes folks a bit wary. Alex doesn't like it when I say that, but my experience is that unknown Bdx AC is one of the riskiest purchases one can make. Maybe there's lots of great stuff in Bordeaux, but what matters to me is what I can find.

[David M. Bueker]

the reality is that most of the under $25 Bdx I see is a risky gamble.

For the most part I completely agree. See my post on 14 Bordeaux.

To those of you down on affordable Bordeaux, all I can say is, make it over here and I'll be glad to put on a tasting!!!

Yes, I blame the importers.

However, Dale, I agree completely with you when you say that "my experience is that unknown Bdx AC is one of the riskiest purchases one can make".
There's a lot of medicore and even poor stuff out there.

The wines I'm thinking of are:
- selected wines from the Côtes appellations (Bourg, Blaye, Premières Côtes, Castillon...)
- the southern Graves
- the northern Médoc (AOC Médoc).

All the best,
Alex

But Alex, there must be some reason importers don't bring in these wonderful petit chateaux- there is no hesitancy bringing in inexpensive Cotes du Rhones, Bourgueils, Chiantis, etc. This "it's all the importer's fault" doesn't account for the difference between Bordeaux and other regions.

I DO buy inexpensive Bordeaux, mostly Right Bank - I buy Cotes de Castillon like Ste Colombe and d"Aiguilhe, Bourgs such as Grolet and Tayac, etc. I also buy some Fronsac.
I confess while I find some values in Pessac-Leognan, I can't remember the last Graves AC I liked (or bought more than one bottle of)
I do buy a few Medoc AC, but more Haut Medoc.

But I pretty much buy only wines I've tried before, or ones with recs from those I trust.

Dale,

The reason US importers don't bring in these wonderful petit chateaux is, as mentioned above, that Americans equate Bordeaux with great growths or, at the very least, a nod from Parker (who wrote a book on Bordeaux, but what percentage of those wines are not great growths, or "assimilated")?

So there is not much of a market and people are confused.
Mind you, with such an incredible variety it *is* confusing!
However, the wine trade in Europe imports massive amounts of good, affordable Bordeaux. Their buyers do their homework.

Dale, you are hardly a typical consumer and I do not doubt for a moment that *you* branch out and try tons of interesting wines, including taking gambles on labels you've never seen before!

You don't like the point I'm making about importers. For whatever reason, the fact is that the choice I can find a few minutes from my front door is enormous, and there's some Really Good Stuff out there at prices practically anyone can afford. Serious wines, some of them with good aging potential.

Shit, maybe I should leave my translation business and go back into the wine trade...

All the best,
Alex

However, the wine trade in Europe imports massive amounts of good, affordable Bordeaux. Their buyers do their homework.

I'm not so sure about that if Belgium is anything to go by. The standard €25+ Châteaux can be easily found, but I only know one merchant with a reasonable selection in the €8-20 range. There are quite a few other merchants with very wide choices of good QPR French wine but they often largely by-pass Bordeaux. Indeed, reasonable Burgundy, e.g. Côte Chalonnaise, Mâcon, Chablis, lesser Côtes d'Or, tends to be better represented.

I don't think the choice of QPR Bordeaux is much better in the UK.

Thanks, Tim, for the look at Belgium now. I have a Belgian friend, but he hasn't lived there in 15 years. But he said when he grew up cheap Bordeaux was everywhere- but that it was mostly awful. I think for a long time (maybe still) Belgians were the number #1 in per capita Bdx consumption (or was it the Dutch)? His impression was that more recently other wines had made major inroads in Belgium on the low-end, though classified Bordeaux was still regarded as the most prestigious wine.

If you guys had access to the wines I did, I'm sure you would not be so negative.

It would appear that you unfortunately have a poor selection where you live, but that isn't the be all and end all of the issue!
I wouldn't dream of contesting that what's available on your market does not meet your expectations.
But I am entitled to doubt that what you can buy (or have bought) locally is a good selection...

Look at the statistics. Lots and lots and lots of Bordeaux is exported to just about every country.
It would be a mistake to think that this is either grands crus or humdrum commodity-type Bordeaux rouge.
There are many, many fine wine in the middle range. I'm sorry you don't have access to them and apparently do not know them.

Alex

Thanks, Tim, for the look at Belgium now. I have a Belgian friend, but he hasn't lived there in 15 years. But he said when he grew up cheap Bordeaux was everywhere- but that it was mostly awful. I think for a long time (maybe still) Belgians were the number #1 in per capita Bdx consumption (or was it the Dutch)? His impression was that more recently other wines had made major inroads in Belgium on the low-end, though classified Bordeaux was still regarded as the most prestigious wine.

Dale, what your Belgian friend says is still true with Bordeaux continuing to slip back in my observation. The supermarkets are still full of cheap and mostly awful Bordeaux but Italy, Spain, Portuagl and New World are gaining more shelf space. Most seriously selective merchants seem to avoid low priced Bordeaux. I think that Bordeaux has lost credibility for QPR because of the supermarkets. This is a pity because I do believe that Alex is right in saying that there are gems if you know your way around.

Tim, Dale, et al,

You are right, a lot of thin, green, weedy, acidic Bordeaux did do harm to the appellation as a whole.

There are, of course, fads in wine.
I hope that the Bordeaux producers can raise the overall quality so that it doesn't take someone especially clued-in to buy affordable wines with confidence.

All the best,
Alex

[David M. Bueker]

Alex,

I guess the question is if there are so many good value Bordeaux around why are those who import less expensive wines bringing in such dreck? There are plenty of low priced wines available at my favorite shop. As you saw in my notes from Monday, I tasted a number of them & under $20 was only impressed by the QPR of the D'Aiguilhe. To be fair I have enjoyed Caronne St. Gemme in the past, and I am also a regular buyer of La Prade. Are these three wines the types of good value Bordeaux you speak of? If so then a lot of importers are just picking the wrong wines, as most of the value choices are mediocre at best, easily outdistanced by $12 Cotes du Rhone.

David,

>>>I guess the question is if there are so many good value Bordeaux around why are those who import less expensive wines bringing in such dreck?

The fault is mostly with the importers, as I've said above.

>>>To be fair I have enjoyed Caronne St. Gemme in the past, and I am also a regular buyer of La Prade. Are these three wines the types of good value Bordeaux you speak of?

Yes indeed.

>>> If so then a lot of importers are just picking the wrong wines,

Yes,

>>>as most of the value choices are mediocre at best, easily outdistanced by $12 Cotes du Rhone.

In France, the big competitor of Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur is Côtes du Rhône too.
I don't drink much Côtes du Rhône, but I agree with you: at a basic level it is more reliable than Bordeaux. OK?
But I am not talking about Bordeaux and Bordeaux Supérieur, even if there are very good value wines there too.
I am thinking more of the appellations you've already spoken of: Médoc, Haut-Médoc, Côtes de Castillon, Côtes de Francs.. The latter two are ones that very few people have even heard of.
Wines like La Prade or d'Aiguilhe, in fact, piggyback their link with owners of great growths. It often comes back to that...
Equally good wines without an influential owner have an extremely tough battle gaining exposure.

Bordering on politics here (!), some people think that the market is always right, that the best and brightest will necessarily rise to the top, just like Darwin said.
I do not think that is true when it comes to fine wine (not just talking Bordeaux here). There are many other parameters that determine what is available, and what sells!

Alex