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WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Robin Garr » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:02 pm

Victor de la Serna wrote:Toro is a great wine region - and the Niagara peninsula too, if you consider ice wines, of course. Not all wines should taste alike. Termes is a simple, entry-level, powerful wine that gives you the fruit and immediate taste of the region, and is good with barbecue and other powerful foods. Termes is not a bad wine by any stretch of the imagination. Another thing is whether you like powerful reds or not. But then if you go to the top-of-the-line Toro wines, with their varying styles, you will find a number of really remarkable ones. Get a few experienced, unbiased tasters and have them taste, say, the 2004s by San Román, Pintia, Numanthia (and Termanthia), Quinta Quietud, Villaester, Pago La Jara, Bienvenida Sitio del Palo and Elías Mora. And then have have them reply to Mr. Bueker's wonderful statement, "Toro is a poor place to plant grapes".

I guess jokey replies evidence a lack of solid argumentation...


All kidding aside, Victor, I think David's comment was meant in fun, not to be taken seriously, as to some extent was mine.

One wonders, though - and perhaps this is something worth worrying about as global warming accelerates - what sort of slippery slope we step onto when we seek to coax great wines out of climates that historically might have been considered unsuitable.

And while you're certainly correct that ice wine makes splendid use of the Niagara setting (which is unusually mild for Canada), my reference was not to Riesling ice wine but to red wines made in marginal conditions from French-hybrid grape varieties. Paul B is being very serious indeed when he declares them great wines and, essentially, noble in their ability to thrive in a situation where mere Syrah and Merlot must fail.

Is the conventional wisdom about great wine thriving in temperate climates incorrect? Is it prudent to push the edges and try making wine in increasingly inappropriate locations? Toro is fine, but what about the Western Sahara?
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by David M. Bueker » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:13 pm

Victor de la Serna wrote:I guess jokey replies evidence a lack of solid argumentation...


Not really. I just have not had many modern Spanish wines that I have liked. I find them thick and unbalanced. You obviously do not. For my tastes, Toro is a poor place to plant wine grapes. I have the same issue with Jumilla. I won't even get into what is happening in Rioja.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Saina » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:25 pm

Thanks for the reply Victor. But here is what I don't understand: how to differentiate wines that seem like they have make up on and are spoofy from those that actually do. Several times you have noted that I called a wine spoofy when it isn't, yet it tastes to me exactly like a spoofy wine. You were right: maybe I am just incapable of understanding. We obviously can't see eye to eye on these wines, so should we drop the matter?

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I don't drink wine because of religious reasons ... only for other reasons.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Michael Malinoski » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:53 pm

I've really enjoyed a number of Toro wines over the past year--San Roman and Dos Victorias Gran Elias Moro are delicious across several vintages. More broadly, there are super-stars just about anywhere you want to look, and always some who will have to rely on this so-called spoofing (personally hate the term and am so tired of hearing it, but that is another matter). But, at least in these two instances, the wines speak for themselves, IMHO.
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Victor de la Serna

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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Victor de la Serna » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:01 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:
Victor de la Serna wrote:I guess jokey replies evidence a lack of solid argumentation...


Not really. I just have not had many modern Spanish wines that I have liked.

As the ole' Romans would say, 'Quod erat demonstrandum.'
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Victor de la Serna » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:10 pm

Robin Garr wrote:One wonders, though - and perhaps this is something worth worrying about as global warming accelerates - what sort of slippery slope we step onto when we seek to coax great wines out of climates that historically might have been considered unsuitable.

I worry about climate change a lot, and with more reasons for it than 99% of the members of this board. But just let me qualify two of your points, Robin:

1. The point of discussion here is Termes, not a "great wine" by any stretch of the imagination, but a good entry-level Toro, so let's keep our expectations there.

2. That said, who ever said that Toro is a region with one of the "climates that historically might have been considered unsuitable"? Toro is a wonderful high plateau, with altitudes over 2,000 feet and plenty of interesting terroirs, some clay-dominated, some limestone-rich, plus an important number of surviving old vineyards, and there is a centuries-old history of fine wines in the region, albeit they were not known internationally and were limited by rustic winemaking techniques: family wineries in the old times, then big co-ops from the 1930s onward, with well-equipped wineries an exception until the 1990s.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Victor de la Serna » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:13 pm

Otto Nieminen wrote:Several times you have noted that I called a wine spoofy when it isn't, yet it tastes to me exactly like a spoofy wine

What can I say, Otto? Wines from hot climates don't need any spoofing to be big, dense and powerful - and, yes, a bit too much in-your-face if what you like is subtlety. But be assured that no one spends a dime on a reverse osmosis machine in Toro...
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David M. Bueker

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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by David M. Bueker » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:04 pm

Victor de la Serna wrote:
David M. Bueker wrote:
Victor de la Serna wrote:I guess jokey replies evidence a lack of solid argumentation...


Not really. I just have not had many modern Spanish wines that I have liked.

As the ole' Romans would say, 'Quod erat demonstrandum.'


Indeed...I have demonstrated to myself that the wines suck, and there's not a damn thing you can ever do to change my mind. They lack nuance, finesse, elegance and just about everything else I prize in a wine.
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Re: WTN: '00 Termes, '01 Numismae

by Victor de la Serna » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:47 am

David M. Bueker wrote:I have demonstrated to myself that the wines suck, and there's not a damn thing you can ever do to change my mind. They lack nuance, finesse, elegance and just about everything else I prize in a wine.

I'm not trying to change your mind, of course. I'm just trying to counteract, vis-à-vis less bigoted participants in this board, the effects of your disproportionate prejudices. The lack of proportion, of a sense of measure, and obviously of a real knowledge of the wines of Spain are components of a biased attitude that really disqualifies itself. I'm just making sure that this is obvious to everyone else.
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