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Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Salil » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:56 pm

Thanks for all these notes, all - really informative and I will keep a look out for some of these producers. I have only tried one bottle of Cahors recently - though it was a very enjoyable experience and has made me interested in exploring the area further (once I allow myself to start buying wine again).

1982 Château du Cèdre Cahors
Tasted 10/23/09 at a cassoulet dinner. Quite Bordeaux-like in its flavour profile with red fruited and plum flavours mingled with earth, tobacco, herbs and an interesting iodine/medicinal element that doesn't detract from the other flavours. Very fresh and bright in the mouth despite its age with plenty of richness to the fruit and other flavours and good acidity and still-grainy tannins suggesting this still has some time ahead of it.
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Ian Sutton » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:03 pm

Two further thoughts
1) Tim - I didn't acknowledge it earlier, but that was a top lead in and has really helped to kick-start an interesting debate. I'm very much enjoying this open mike for both the TNs and the discussions about stylistic differences. Maybe Cahors being somewhat 'up in the air' at the moment helps prompt such discussions, as there really seems to be immense difference in style.

2) Allied to these variations in style, it may well be that (as David alludes to) Cahors may be one of those rare regions where the cheaper wine may well suit my palate as much as (if not more than) the higher priced prestige cuvees. 8) Happy days indeed if this continues to be borne out.

I though I'd dig into older TNs and rather than reproduce the TNs I've just added a brief summary:
- 1999 Ch Caminade - pleasant but too insubstantial - struggling at 8 years old
- 1989 Georges Vigouroux Cahors Château de Mercuès - picked up as part of a mature parcel. Again lacking much substance (in 2006) and not as complex as hoped for.
- 1996 Château du Cayrou Cahors. Drunk in 2006 and at that point definitely fading, whilst tannins & acid still assertive.
- 2001 Domaine Cosse Maisonneuve Cahors La Fage. Drunk in 2007. Fuller than the above bottles, hence more like what I seek in Cahors. Acidity perhaps a little light. Not complex but might have developed better over intervening years. Slight disappointment for the price.
- 2002 Château Lamartine Cahors Cuvée Particulière. Drunk in 2007. Not much noted, except moderately impressed and showed the typicity I looked for. Hopefully be cracking another bottle of this in the next few days.

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Ian
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Ian H » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:04 pm

Hi David,
Most of the estates he mentioned i tasted at the chicago event; and did not include them in my brief report because imo they were not among the top ones.

That's fair enough, thank heavens there is still room for different tastes, and we're not all obliged to follow one single line.

I admit freely that I am not praising any of these estates for their entry level wines, which I agree are light and lacking interest. In a sense I touched on that when I talked of the dilemma facing these growers. I promise they aren't ever going to get rich from selling to the USA, their production isn't big enough and they are basically peasants without the tradition and history of exporting that the Bordelais merchants have. So their chief market is likely to remain France in the foreseeable future (even if that future isn't that rosy) and there they have to have soft, easily approachable wines in the "new world" style, if you'll forgive the over simplification. They DO have more acidity than their opposite numbers in the new world for a variety of reasons (tradition, french attitudes, food acompaniment, sun,) Serve a soft Argentinian Malbec with a Cassoulet, and you'll see what I mean. My comments were based on their better cuvées, and yes, they are oaky, tannic brooding wines when they're young. Which is why I age them.
i'm even less crazy about eugenie
What? Their "cuvée des Aïeuls" and the newly renamed "Cuvée Pierre le Grand" as well? Ah well. De gustibus...
they make some really good rose in this area. however, even though they are saignee from the red wines, they are not entitled to be called cahors.
Yeah, they're ok, but not a patch on the Bergerac Rosés from decent growers, in my view. However, if you compare both with some of the stuff purporting to be wine coming from Provence, they are as different as chalk and cheese.

To come back on Tim's "black wine" tasting notes. I have to admit I've not tasted the old fashioned black wines, I don't think much was made by the time '52 ravaged the area. However, reading contemporary writings, I don't recognize what I tasted in the descriptions. As I said... "le marketing" My "non note" says "Nose quite jammy, not _that_ black!" I have the recollection of a plum jam that I make here regularly. Also to comment on the dynamic local charter, if you're thinking of the "Grands Vins Seigneurs" this is the initiative of Georges Vigouroux whose name describes his wines well. Not many other estate belong to it. In fact, in my opinion it's done more harm than good generally. However it's more probable that you were thinking of the "Cahors Excellence", which is a sort of stepping stone towards Grand Cru status for the better estates.

But as I see it, they can't agree to "raise standards" until they have a firm perspective of what their target is to be. If it's to make wines that will please Robert Parker, (to give an example of a perfectly respectable target) then they will, in my view lose sight of what the Malbec from the area will taste like, when vinified with minimum intervention.

You asked, Tim, about RVF's booboo. it was in the issue that compared Cabernet Sauvignon blends from '96 and "surprise surprise" found that a top flight Bordeaux was preferred by the (RVF chosen) tasting team to second rank wines from California and elsewhere. A classic example of French chauvinism. I suppose it must have happened around 10 years ago in fact.
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:48 pm

Ruth B wrote:What a wonderful thread! (though I would say Open Mic :))
We see Cahors here and it is something I occasionally buy, but it never seems to get much attention.
It seems to me we consumed some lovely Cahors at Bill Spohn's place in Vancouver (gee Bill has to be 10 years ago) but my memory is not that great and I am not sure if any of us posted notes!
This whole discussion makes me want to go shopping!

Ruth


Hi Ruth.

Shopping in Edmonton (as you do) is not going to deliver much. 2 Cahors at DeVines, 3 Lamartines at the Wine cellar and 3 at Bobs!!!!!
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Ian Sutton » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:09 pm

As promised, a 2nd Ch Lamartine:

2002 Château Lamartine Cahors Cuvée Particulière - France, Southwest France, Cahors (12/4/2009)
Suitably dark-hued and no sign of any age at the rim (this a half bottle)

Quite richly fruited on the nose (indeed even picking up the glass from a foot away released a strong scent). Somewhat remininiscent of a good Bdx blend on the nose, with a touch of coffee hinting at minor oak influence. On swirling more leathery/gamy aromas emerge.

On the palate, there's good depth of dark fruit, but it's certainly not overblown. Grippy tannins keep it tight and the acidity seems more supportive than a bottle tasted a couple of years ago.

This should keep very nicely - perhaps take another look in 3 years and I could see it easily lasting another decade.
Image

Overall, I guess this is the better wine, and it does show decent typicity. However FWIW I preferred the 2000 basic bottling over this (slightly) more expensive wine from 2002. In part I'll put that down to differing vintages & level of maturity. Maybe though the basic bottling in a good year and with some age, is just right for me 8)

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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Tim York » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:13 pm

Cahors 2007 Château Croze de Pys - Alc. 13% - (€4,99) from Malbec 75%, Merlot 20% and Tannat 5%.
This wine has blossomed since I tasted it in February. Medium weight at most, the notes of wet leather, tar, liquorice and lively acidity are still there but the invigorating red fruit and minerals are more in evidence as well as an ingratiating underlying roundness probably contributed by the Merlot and the tannins are more in the background; definitely Cahors in character and an eminently quaffable Chinati substitute tonight with an aubergine lasagna in tomato sauce; very limited ageing potential, I guess, but who cares? 15.5/20+ QPR!!
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:14 pm

Nice note Ian. Here, one can buy the 05s as I stated including the Expression. Lets do another OM in 15 yrs!!
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Ruth B » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:14 pm

Bob Parsons Alberta. wrote:
Ruth

Hi Ruth.

Shopping in Edmonton (as you do) is not going to deliver much. 2 Cahors at DeVines, 3 Lamartines at the Wine cellar and 3 at Bobs!!!!!


That's eight to try.
ok I have tried the St Martin Clos La Coutale so seven new to me wines. :)

And it might not be fashionable to say in this thread, but I have enjoyed a variety of Argentinian Malbec starting with the more (to my taste) 'Cahor like' Weinert and including some of the fruitier offerings from the likes of Catena.
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by David Creighton » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:53 pm

ian h - on the eugenie. they listed their cuvee l'aieul but either it wasn't there or after tasting the other two i passed. the '06 tradition was my favorite - a bit rustic which is fine; but light and friendly. the '05 pierre le grand had a lot going for it in that it was all stainless; but seemed hot and, well, 'four square'; in a word 'charmless'. as you say 'de gustibus (non disputandum est)'. and sorry to keep being disagreeable; but about the roses. granted i've only had two; and maybe they were just the best ever. but the ones i had were certainly at least as good as the bergeracs i had when i was there in may. fortunatly i do agree that both are better than most of the provence plonk. btw, when we were in bordeaux, we accidentally had a malbec rose from bordeaux! i forget the estate; but it was a really lovely wine. maybe malbec takes particularly well to that style.
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Ian H » Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:39 pm

Hi again David,
David Creighton wrote: the '05 pierre le grand had a lot going for it in that it was all stainless; but seemed hot and, well, 'four square'; in a word 'charmless'. as you say 'de gustibus (non disputandum est)'.
I'll not insult you by presuming that you've not had a lot of experience in drinking young wines, but what you describe is exactly how many of the better wines based on Malbec and Cabernet Sauvignon taste to me when very young. However, short of suggesting that next time you come to France, you pop over to the Correze, where I can give you a chance to taste these same wines at 10 or 15 years old, I don't really know what to say. Actually I could say the same in spades for the comparison between Cahors (Ok, so it isn't!) and Bergerac pinks. For YEARS I refused to taste them, until one day Luc de Conti was so damning about his, ("I think it's terrible, but the punters like it!!") that I felt I had to taste it, and honestly found it delightful. Since then I've found maybe four or five really good ones, not necessarily from the best producers, though the top growers rarely make a really naff wine.

David Creighton wrote:and sorry to keep being disagreeable;
No, no you're not being disagreeable, you're disagreeing pleasantly and politely and if we can't disagree in a civilized way about so subjective a matter as taste in wine, it would be a very sad day.
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All the best
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Tim York » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:33 pm

Cahors Prince Probus 1994 - Clos Triguedina - Alc. 12.5%.
Opened tonight with a less than usually unctuous "cassoulet toulousain".

I re-posted above an enthusiastic note about the 1995. This 1994 did not measure up to that; the year had a wet Autumn in Bordeaux, some 150km away to the West, and very likely the same in Cahors.
C: Deep red with scarcely any bricking.
N: At first not very Cahors with some finefresh red fruit, including raspberry, and some clay but gradually more Cahors notes of wet leather and liquorice came up.
P: A slight let-down after the bouquet. Much leaner and more simple than the 1995, but also less oaky, with sharper edges in tannins and acidity although there was enough fruit, Cahors tang and elegant austerity for enjoyment; but it was not desperately moreish; 15/20++.
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:43 pm

Just popped in from shovelling!These past few days have been keen to read notes from earlier vintages, I have no aged Cahors here at all. No access! Is this your only bottle Tim? Pity you were not more excited!
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Tim York » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:03 pm

Cahors 2005 - Château Haut-Monplaisir, Cathy & Daniel Fournié - Alc. 13.5% - (€6,50 - I caught a glimpse of the wholesale tariff on the bridge last year and this one then cost less than €4 to the trade!!); 100% Malbec matured in cement vats and bottled unfiltered. Pascal Verhaeghe, owner of Château du Cèdre and Cahors quality standard bearer, acts as consultant here.

I opened this for the remains of Sunday's cassoulet toulousain, which, as often with stews, was better tonight than when first served. However, I should have kept my hands off this bottle because, in spite of its being a basic cuvée, it still needed more time.
C: quite deep ruby.
N: closed with a whiff of reduction and neither opened up much nor lost the reductive smell with vigorous swirling.
P: tasty and invigorating but still holding something back with medium body, savoury red fruit and prunes, good acidity, tangy minerals, touches of liquorice and firm tannins; would be better in a couple of years but alas my only bottle; 15.5/20+ QPR!.
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:43 pm

Interested in your cassoulet recipe Tim. Is this something similar>>>?

http://recipes.chef2chef.net/recipe-arc ... 8564.shtml
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Tim York » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:59 pm

I'll consult Germaine tomorrow about the cassoulet recipe. There is goose or duck in ours and the type of bean is important. The ones we used this time were Italian and too dry; they should be "haricots tarbais" or another typically South Western type.
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:13 am

Sounds good to me! There are quite a few recipes if one does a google search, needless to say.
Oh, opened the `05 Croix du Mayne late last night. Pretty un-yielding, might need 24 hrs to show up.
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:12 pm

WTN: `05 Cahors Croix du Mayne, Francois Pelissie.

Good natural cork, 13.3% alc, $23 Cdn, decanted one hour, no sediment noted.
Gravel soil, 15% Merlot. Paul in book says "owner has cast his eyes in direction of the Charte de Qualite".

Color. Medium ruby-crimson, light watery purple rim.

Nose. Bouquet not a strong point here, rather closed I`d say. Some oak here, earthy, black fruits. No change day two.

Palate. Initial entry thought was dry, medium tannins, blackcurrant, long finish, feel opened way too early? There again could be house style here, better maybe with right food?
Acidity is not bad, "rather moreish on the palate" from across the table. Shows brief hint of some sweetness (my imagination?) then closes down.
Day 2...some plum, still tart, "lead pencil". Generally pretty unyielding at this stage.
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Tim York » Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:27 pm

Bob Parsons Alberta. wrote:WTN: `05 Cahors Croix du Mayne, Francois Pelissie.



Bob, this one sounds as if it needs several more years just like the Haut-Monplaisir 05 basic cuvée which I opened a couple of days ago. When I tasted on the bridge, I thought the 05s very good indeed but I think that it is normal that they should be shut down at this stage. Disappointing, though, when one lacks access to more mature bottles.
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Ian Sutton » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:50 pm

Tim
A comment that prompts me to post something I almost did on seeing Bob's note. Some classic regions such as Bdx and Barolo have a (deserved) reputation for being difficult in youth, but arguably would you call traditional Cahors even worse - perhaps the enfant terrible of the wine world?

If so, it perhaps explains the alternate styles - light quaffers and super-rich cuvees with sweet oaking?

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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Tim York » Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:53 am

That's a good point , Ian, which gets to the heart of the Cahors commercial problem. Their best wines are like fine Bordeaux and Barolo in that they need ageing to show their stuff but they no longer have the credibility which incites enough people to buy them for cellaring. How does Cahors lift its image sufficiently to start being bought for cellaring by more than a few handfuls of enthusiasts?

Meanwhile, as you say, many producers will be tempted go down the lavish oaking route to high prices, e.g. Lagrézette, or the Merlot dumbing down route, or a bit of both.

That said, there are some very nice QPR Cahors for drinking young, see my TNs on Solis and Croze de Pys, but I may have caught these before they went into a closed period. Also some of the oaky ones do integrate their wood with time (sufficiently for me at least), e.g. Triguedina Probus 95.
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Marcelo Maia Rosa » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:40 am

This topic is wonderful!, i'm completely delighted about Cahors, but is not so easy to find good accessible bottles here... but I will keep trying!

Cahors, Château Lamartine 2002 12,5% (entry level)
Red fruits, cherry and little earthy, basic and competent in the mouth, a little simple if I think in a Cahors, but in a base wine well done! goes easy!!!
I was a little frustrating to didn't find the secondary tones, but I think that this 2002 vintage is sleeping, could be better in future?

Cahors, le Plant du Roy vinage blend, 2001+2004+2005 13,0%
Strongest aromas of strawberry with hints of mint, is good, but don't excites. The problem is In the mouth, disjoint with a bitter finish... better luck next time!
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Ian Sutton » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:26 am

Marcelo
Interesting to see your note on the Ch Lamartine 2002. After tasting a 2000 vintage Ch. Haut-Monplaisir at the weekend - and after Ch Lamartine 2000 and 2002s of Ch Lamartine Cuvees Particuliere and Expression (on the same evening), I'm edging towards a belief that the 2000 vintage was excellent and very much coming into prime drinking (at least for those labels). Not sure about 2002 and perhaps it's not ready yet? None of the 2002s have tasted over the hill, but none have given the impression that they were likely to develop into something really special. There again, I don't have the experience to make this sort of call, so if I had any more of the 2002s I'd give them another couple of years before retasting.

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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Marcelo Maia Rosa » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:23 pm

Ian,
About the vintages for sure you have more experience than me... My observation is from a small testes about Cahors, who really enthusiastic me! and this 2002 didn't funk! rs!
I have one friend who tried the 2005 and loved it! so i need to try more Lamartines to improve my opinion! Regards!
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Re: Open Mike: Cahors, the original Malbec.

by Ian Sutton » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:38 pm

Marcelo
I'll also be following Ch Lamartine as a result of this open mike, and it's really reassuring to know there are relatively cheap wines (such as their standard estate wine) that offer real character and reward cellaring handsomely. My rediscovery of the Cahors I recall from years ago is pleasing :D

I think 2005 is reputed to be good - unfortunately I didn't get round to tasting the 2005 Haut-Monplasir that was also on at that tasting (I was tasting a little slowly for my friends :oops: ).

I also tried the 2006 Ch Lamartine Cahors 'Benjamin', which was by contrast pretty raw, and simple - I suspect making a simple quaffing wine might be difficult in the Cahors appellation.

regards

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