Interesting Question

The Occhpinti Nero D'Avola I had tonight had a rubber "imitation dripped wax" seal. No one has yet addressed that. Wax may be porous but I doubt rubber is. Is this going to damage the wine in the long term? (Not that I plan on buying this wine and ageing it, I'm just curious.)

I'm all for cork by the way. As the saying goes, "It's better to look good than to feel good."

And you look mahhhhvelous, Agostino.

I recall a post from the Austrian wine critic Michael Pronay a few years ago about a tasting in Bordeaux, where all the "off" bottles of Bordeaux were subjected to GC analysis for TCA. IIRC, their statistics ran close to 15% of all the bottles being TCA tainted.

The above implies that of the off bottles, 15% were TCA tainted. It does not state either that 15% of all of the wines tasted were "off'" or that all of those were TCA tainted.

If 1000 bottles were tasted and let's say a 100 were found to be off (and that would be a huge percentage) that would translate to 15 bottles being impacted upon by TCA. That in turn means that 1.5% ofthe bottles opened were TCA tainted.

Not clear that it does. Mark's statement was as follows: IIRC, their statistics ran close to 15% of all the bottles being TCA tainted. I'm not clear if that is 15 percent of the 'off' bottles or 15 percent of 'all' bottles being tainted.

Perhaps if we had a link to the post, if it still floating around in cyberspace . . .

The Occhpinti Nero D'Avola I had tonight had a rubber "imitation dripped wax" seal. No one has yet addressed that. Wax may be porous but I doubt rubber is. Is this going to damage the wine in the long term? (Not that I plan on buying this wine and ageing it, I'm just curious.)

I'm all for cork by the way. As the saying goes, "It's better to look good than to feel good."

Would you do us the honor of a tasting note!

Not clear that it does. Mark's statement was as follows: IIRC, their statistics ran close to 15% of all the bottles being TCA tainted. I'm not clear if that is 15 percent of the 'off' bottles or 15 percent of 'all' bottles being tainted.

While I don't have the exact quote, I can assure you that M. Pronay didn't post that 1.5% of the wines were TCA infected. My memory of the post was that tasters rejected something like 20-30% of the bottles, and about 1/2 proved to have TCA. The others were rejected for excess oxidation or other off flavors. I don't remember what vintage that was, Michael occasionally posts here, maybe he can chime in.

Personally I am not especially sensitive to TCA, and probably run about 4% corked. That said, I don't think that those most sensitive than I are delusional when they hit higher percentages.

there were different reasons for off wines, and that people misidentified other spoilage or taint as cork taint.
.

Indeed, some people misidentify bretty, cooked, or unstable wines as TCA.
On the other hand, I once sat next to a rabid cork supporter (Romance! Besides, I've only had 2 corked bottles in last 10 years, I've opened thousands!) at a dinner. He loved an incredibly corked wine, declared it earthy. Goes both ways, you know.

there were different reasons for off wines, and that people misidentified other spoilage or taint as cork taint.
.

Indeed, some people misidentify bretty, cooked, or unstable wines as TCA.
On the other hand, I once sat next to a rabid cork supporter (Romance! Besides, I've only had 2 corked bottles in last 10 years, I've opened thousands!) at a dinner. He loved an incredibly corked wine, declared it earthy. Goes both ways, you know.

It definitely does, Dale. I'd add to your list oxidized, maderized, cooked, sunstruck, acetic, and probably a few others.

It's all too easy to put bad bottles off as cork taint, and I see it done all the time. It's also far too easy to glug down a wine without realizing that the stuff was tainted. One very good winemaker I know tells the story of how he was having a casual Italian dinner with family, ordered a bottle of Chianti, got about halfway throught it, all the time thinking it was rather dull, flat and disappointing and unlike other bottles he had had. Then he went back, carefully sniffed the wine, and found it was lightly tainted----just enough to produce the symptoms he had just described.

To me, this is all beside the point though. And that point is, again, that there is a better way than cork to seal bottles before they are consumed. If we can eliminate one major culprit of off wines, why shouldn't we do so?

Not clear that it does. Mark's statement was as follows: IIRC, their statistics ran close to 15% of all the bottles being TCA tainted. I'm not clear if that is 15 percent of the 'off' bottles or 15 percent of 'all' bottles being tainted.

While I don't have the exact quote, I can assure you that M. Pronay didn't post that 1.5% of the wines were TCA infected. My memory of the post was that tasters rejected something like 20-30% of the bottles, and about 1/2 proved to have TCA. The others were rejected for excess oxidation or other off flavors. I don't remember what vintage that was, Michael occasionally posts here, maybe he can chime in.

Indeed, Dale, Michael stated that 15% of the bottles opened for the tasting were proven to be TCA tainted and, yes, the total number of off bottles ran higher than even that staggeringly high number. I'll see if I can dredge up the original post using DejaGoogle.

Personally I am not especially sensitive to TCA, and probably run about 4% corked. That said, I don't think that those most sensitive than I are delusional when they hit higher percentages.

Why, thank you, old thing. You've just merited an even better selection of wines for our next get-together, whenever that may happen to be. Let's hope and pray that none of them are corked

Mark Lipton

As a home winemaker, I always use corks, though admittedly, screw caps haven't been easy to come by in small numbers. No matter what type of closure used, there is a chance of some sort of spoilage. Screw tops must have a gasket to get a good seal on the top of the bottle. If the gasket is flawed, there is a of leaking and/or oxidation. Furthermore, if the top of the bottle itself is flawed, the same risk exists.

One of my fears with screw caps is too much ullage left in the bottle. A cork displaces a lot of space and hence, a lot of oxygen. A screw cap sits on the top of the bottle, so there could be a good bit of air left if the bottle isn't topped-up well. The flip side of that is sulphidisation, which can occur with screw caps due to too little oxygen in the bottle.

Both methods have their pros and cons. There is always a chance of getting a bad bottle no matter what type of closure is used; and it might or might not have anything to do with the closure.

Would you do us the honor of a tasting note!

Sorry Oswald, I didn't take notes. You did inspire me to try this wine though when I happened to see it on the shelf at Enoteca Ronchi in Milan.

I drank it over two days and payed close attention to it. I've been trying to figure out Nero D'Avola since rumour has it that a lot of bottlings are not always pure Nero D'Avola. Some people say its often Nerello Mascalese and others say its often heavily blended with cab, merlot or syrah. Sicily used to provide France with a lot of wine to bulk up their own, I believe in the 60's and 70's. In Sicily therefore alot of vineyards planted with those varieties remain and, well, they gotta be used. So my interest in the Occhipinti was also to taste a pure Nero D'Avola since I figured such a well-regarded producer would not "trick" its wines.

I was surprised at the elegance and good acidity. Makes one want to ask - Is this wine from Sicily? Overall I found it interesting. Not a bad drink. It had good complexity in the nose and I enjoyed the elegance. Over the course of two days though, it never reached a harmony. There was something incongruent about it. Funny you should mention it reminded you of a Chinon. How can a wine from Sicily be in any way similar to a Chinon where the climate is quite cold? Overall it was quite good, good effort, but it didn't convince me completely. I believe the pricetag was 24 Euros which is too much. I don't care about the heavy bottle and the wax seal, give me quality. I do wonder if her vineyards are at a high altitude to achieve such leanness. (not that it was lean, it was lean for Sicily.)

Thanks for caring Oswald

around 3% or so. The study went on to say that flawed bottles made up something like 10% of the study, but that they were from other flaws, and not TCA contamination. I found this interesting and is partly my contention that what most people call a 'corked bottle' is from some other, unrelated flaw. This doesn't excuse or let cork producers off the hook for their product, but may shed the light on a more open and honest discussion of the problem.

Most of those in favor of screwcaps rather than corks are aware of these statistics, and do not deny or refute them, Mark. Speaking for many of them, I've never once denied the assertion that many people are too free to posit 'cork taint' to any spoiled wine. Never known others to deny it either. There can always be an element of uncertainty, yes, and sometimes you just aren't sure where the fault lies.

I do resent the taint you cast, however, when you suggest that there has not been "a more open and honest discussion of the problem" from those who favor screwcaps over cork closures. Many of the people on this board fall into the extremely experienced and highly perceptive category (well, where wine is concerned, anyway ). For you to suggest that we are not honest in our arguments is pretty shabby.

If your rate of cork taint is not as high as others, congratulations. Either you're very lucky or fairly insensitive to TCA at lower levels (not meant as a slur, just a statement of your sensitivity to a chemical compound). But denying a problem exists, or downplaying it simply because you don't experience it or consider it problematic? That's another matter altogether.

I would repeat the plaintive plea of those of us who love wine more than we love inefficient corks that damage wine: if we know that there is a method that is far, far superior to the one currently in use, why can't we ask that producers use that method? Why must we rely on a method, system, or substance that has been proven to be not as good at doing what it is supposed to do, when there is something better available? And by asking that, how do we become the ones close-minded and dishonest?

Hoke, been away a day and all hell breaks loose (!). I know the people on this board are pretty experienced when it comes to noting defects, and I might be confusing boards here (the problem of multiple board-viewing!), but my experience seemed to side within a range of 3-5%, whereas I've heard a higher figure bandied about. I'm not sure if these are current releases or not, but the cork industry has made strides during the last decade in trying to stem TCA contaminants. I'm all for anything that provides a better closure, but I am not totally convinced of all of the new ones yet. One reason I support cork is due to the whole ecosystem aspect to cork and the nurturing of trees that take a century or more to produce a product. Without the cork industry, this way of life would vanish. Perhaps it's that same reason I love the feel of vinyl records: there is substance to it that you can hold. I'm not saying people are putting forth 'dishonest' arguments here, and perhaps I don't go through the volumes of wine that others do (I do seem to remember there being more tainted bottles trying sample bottles from a distributor friend of mine, but that the percentage might have been the same). I dunno. But I want to shed light on what my experience has been.

Wax may be porous but I doubt rubber is.

Rubber is porous. That is why balloons slowly deflate.

around 3% or so. The study went on to say that flawed bottles made up something like 10% of the study, but that they were from other flaws, and not TCA contamination. I found this interesting and is partly my contention that what most people call a 'corked bottle' is from some other, unrelated flaw. This doesn't excuse or let cork producers off the hook for their product, but may shed the light on a more open and honest discussion of the problem.

Most of those in favor of screwcaps rather than corks are aware of these statistics, and do not deny or refute them, Mark. Speaking for many of them, I've never once denied the assertion that many people are too free to posit 'cork taint' to any spoiled wine. Never known others to deny it either. There can always be an element of uncertainty, yes, and sometimes you just aren't sure where the fault lies.

I do resent the taint you cast, however, when you suggest that there has not been "a more open and honest discussion of the problem" from those who favor screwcaps over cork closures. Many of the people on this board fall into the extremely experienced and highly perceptive category (well, where wine is concerned, anyway ). For you to suggest that we are not honest in our arguments is pretty shabby.

If your rate of cork taint is not as high as others, congratulations. Either you're very lucky or fairly insensitive to TCA at lower levels (not meant as a slur, just a statement of your sensitivity to a chemical compound). But denying a problem exists, or downplaying it simply because you don't experience it or consider it problematic? That's another matter altogether.

I would repeat the plaintive plea of those of us who love wine more than we love inefficient corks that damage wine: if we know that there is a method that is far, far superior to the one currently in use, why can't we ask that producers use that method? Why must we rely on a method, system, or substance that has been proven to be not as good at doing what it is supposed to do, when there is something better available? And by asking that, how do we become the ones close-minded and dishonest?

Hoke, been away a day and all hell breaks loose (!). I know the people on this board are pretty experienced when it comes to noting defects, and I might be confusing boards here (the problem of multiple board-viewing!), but my experience seemed to side within a range of 3-5%, whereas I've heard a higher figure bandied about. I'm not sure if these are current releases or not, but the cork industry has made strides during the last decade in trying to stem TCA contaminants. I'm all for anything that provides a better closure, but I am not totally convinced of all of the new ones yet. One reason I support cork is due to the whole ecosystem aspect to cork and the nurturing of trees that take a century or more to produce a product. Without the cork industry, this way of life would vanish. Perhaps it's that same reason I love the feel of vinyl records: there is substance to it that you can hold. I'm not saying people are putting forth 'dishonest' arguments here, and perhaps I don't go through the volumes of wine that others do (I do seem to remember there being more tainted bottles trying sample bottles from a distributor friend of mine, but that the percentage might have been the same). I dunno. But I want to shed light on what my experience has been.

That's a reasonable, measured and considerate response, Mark.

For most of the points you illuminate, I'd certainly agree, or at least be sympathetic to. It was simply the casting of what I assume was some careless wording on your part that led me to reply as I did. I am always ready for open and honest discussion.

The one portion of your response that, while I understand it, I don't necessarily totally agree with, is the assertion that without the wine cork portion an entire ecosystem would vanish. First, I believe that is an exaggeration---both of the necessity for wine corks as part of the cork industry to insure its continuation and the whole argument that we need to continue putting faulty closures in bottles or we'll make forests and populations disappear overnight. That's a pretty difficult burden for poor wine drinkers to bear, isn't it? (If you don't continue using real cork for your wine bottles, I'm gonna kill this tree! )

The cork industry does not rely totally on wine corks for its survival, I'm afraid. There are other uses for cork. And why, oh why, would it necessarily eradicate entire ecosystems anyway? Would there be a necessity for chopping down the ancestral forests if the wine market for corks abated? You'd have to convince me of that. Yes, some companies would have to reorient their marketing, I'm sure. And yes, there might be a thinning out in the market too. And I suspect a few of the old wealthy large landowners might not get as much wealth pouring in as they are used to either. Snif.

But you know what? In the end, it's not really my responsibility to support an inefficient industry in Portugal and Spain. It would be like my asking a small portion of the Portugese people to send money to help support the car industry in Detroit so they could continue making faulty and shoddy products. I don't think they'd care to do that. Or closer to home here, to subsidize the lumber industry in Oregon so we could continue providing jobs to people who don't want to do antyhing different than what they were doing---no matter that it doesn't benefit our ecosystem, isn't economically sustainable, and will eventually end no matter what we do.

And what about the poor peasants who depend on punching out screwcaps for their daily bread? Aren't you concerned about them too?

It is not so much the cork trees themselves but the whole area - not least the considerable spaces between the trees - that supports a rich diversity of flora and fauna. And that area needs to be managed by man, in the way it has been done for millennia, if it is to continue. Take away the income from high quality wine cork, and you run the risk of making the estate unviable. In which case it would either return to the wild state, or the oaks will be felled and the land used for intensive cerial farming, or perhaps eucalyptus forests for paper. None of those options are good news for the wildlife.

If cork income dries up I personally I think it is worth subsidising the farmers to continue if that is what it takes tp preserve the evironment. But I agree with Hoke that the cork manufacturers need to stand on their own feet and compete with manufacturers of other closures. And specifically I object to anyone laying an environmental guilt trip on me as a wine drinker who prefers screwcaps to corks.

[quote="Agostino Berti"]I was surprised at the elegance and good acidity. Makes one want to ask - Is this wine from Sicily? Overall I found it interesting. Not a bad drink. It had good complexity in the nose and I enjoyed the elegance. Over the course of two days though, it never reached a harmony. There was something incongruent about it. Funny you should mention it reminded you of a Chinon. How can a wine from Sicily be in any way similar to a Chinon where the climate is quite cold? Overall it was quite good, good effort, but it didn't convince me completely./quote]

I think I enjoyed it more than you did, but it left me with something of a dilemma. I liked the purely sensorial pleasure it gave me enough to want to buy more, but the fact that it tastes like something else, even though that something else is something that I also like very much, disturbs me from an "intellectual pleasure" point of view. It's like wine needs both to be fully satisfying.