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The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by David M. Bueker » Sun May 17, 2009 11:05 am

Victor,

Thanks for the clarification. I should probably clarify once more that I am not anti-bottle aging for all wines, but rather questioning the use of bottle aging all but a very small handful of wines. Certainly there are some wines where bottle age is nearly a necessity, and for those (e.g. good Bordeaux, good Burgundy, Hermitage/Cote Rotie) I am all for it.

I just wonder if it's always worth chasing after what may be a false grail of greater "complexity" in some wines. My personal favorite German Rieslings come to mind. Certainly they can gain from bottle age, but not all of even the best ones do, and the question is what do they gain & is it worth the loss of glorious primary fruit & the acid snap of youth.

David from Switzerland and I have nibbled around the edge of this question regarding Donnhoff, where he ends up on the skeptic side (though IIRC he favors aging the Brucke Auslese GK), and I end up on the pro-aging side.

It's one of those questions that really has no answer, but it's fun to discuss nonetheless.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Dale Williams » Sun May 17, 2009 12:31 pm

I'm not sure there is that much debate going on here.

Is there anyone who thinks the majority of wine is helped by aging? I don't think so.

Is there anyone who thinks that "serious" versions of red Bordeaux, Burgundy, Rioja, and Piedmont don't benefit from aging? Again, I don't think so.

One can maybe get less consensus once you get to New World wines (except Dunn!). But since we have mostly discussed OW, there seem to be only a few disagreements:

1) Loire. David doesn't think Muscadet benefits from aging. Others (inc. me) do. I've enjoyed '88, '89, 90, and 95 Briords and/or L d'Or in recent years. Very different from the young versions, I liked a lot. I wouldn't age 99% of Muscadet, but I would those wines. I also think Chenin in the guise of great makers like Huet gains a lot of complexity with age. I'm less a fan of aging SB, but I've had a few older (as in 10 years, not 20) bottles of Vatan and Dagueneau that impressed. Still, I usually just drink SB young.

2) German Riesling. At Kab/Spat level I generally am just as happy to drink young, with the exception of a few producers, notably JJ Prum and von Schubert. I tend to prefer Auslese+ with age. On Donnhoff I'm beginning to lean more towards early drinking.

3) Bandol was mentioned in initial post. I don't drink much, or age any. But maybe we should organize a trip to Crabtrees Kittle House to see if they still have some of those 80s Pibarons and Pradeauxs at good prices, so we can discuss this more intelligently. :)

4) Rhone was also mentioned. I think FOR MY TASTES good Cote Rotie and Hermitage definitely benefits from some age.

We can certainly differ over particulars (I think David is overoptimistic re aging '01 modern Bdx RB satellites! He think I'm crazy to age Muscadet! etc). But no one is arguing over the vast majority of wines. Is there anyone who has a fair amount of experience with aged wines who would rank serious young Bordeaux or Burgundy (red or white) as better than their aged counterparts? Nor is anyone arguing for aging Beaujolais AC or Menetou-Salon for 20 years.

I don't think someone is a "lesser geek" for not sharing my preferences. But for me the complexity gained by aging is integral to most of my greatest wines ever tasted. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy some Bordeaux vintages ('97, '99) early, but they never for me (as a whole) hit the heights of great vintages with 20+ years.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by James Roscoe » Sun May 17, 2009 12:39 pm

For those wines that benefit from aging, how much aging is optimal? Do any wines ever benefit from a year or two of aging? Us "lesser geeks" want to know. (at least this one does :roll: )
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by David M. Bueker » Sun May 17, 2009 12:55 pm

Well that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish James. Ponder, ponder...
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by James Roscoe » Sun May 17, 2009 1:06 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:Well that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish James. Ponder, ponder...

Isn't it the underlying issue though? The two questions seem to be related to me, ie, the merits of aging and how long to age.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by David M. Bueker » Sun May 17, 2009 1:11 pm

James Roscoe wrote:
David M. Bueker wrote:Well that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish James. Ponder, ponder...

Isn't it the underlying issue though? The two questions seem to be related to me, ie, the merits of aging and how long to age.


I completely agree. It's just that I'm in the midst of a spring cleaning project and decided to think about it rather than write a quick pronouncement...err...opinion piece. :D
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Rahsaan » Sun May 17, 2009 1:35 pm

James Roscoe wrote:the merits of aging and how long to age.


Not sure what you're asking. Seems kind of general. It really depends on the specific vintage/cuvee/bottling. And of course on personal preferences.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Tim York » Sun May 17, 2009 3:26 pm

Rahsaan wrote:
James Roscoe wrote:the merits of aging and how long to age.


Not sure what you're asking. Seems kind of general. It really depends on the specific vintage/cuvee/bottling. And of course on personal preferences.


While waiting for David, let me have a go. I agree with Rahsaan that it depends on the factors he mentions. You mention two years but from when? At two years from vintage many age-worthy wines have not been bottled so let us take it as two years from bottling. Up to the first winter after bottling most good wines are delicious, though often with some youthful crudeness, but at two years out many age-worthy wines are slap in the middle of their closed period which is the worst time to open them; the sorts of wine that do this include red Bordeaux and Burgundy, Vouvray and Savennières, some Riesling, etc. Some wines, e.g. Beaucastel VV white, reputedly mature in a saw edged fashion into and out of the sulks for 10 to 15 years.

The sorts of wine that can often be better for me after 1 or 2 years than upon release include Beaujolais crus, fruity Loire CabFranc from lighter soils, basic Languedoc/Roussillon and southern Rhône cuvées and some Barbera and Dolcetto, etc. but always with Rahsaan's proviso that your view will depend on your personal taste. And such wines often do not respond well to any further ageing.

This is not very helpful but it is hard to lay down any rules. Advice from growers and good wine merchants is invaluable again with the proviso that it is necessary to aim off for differences in taste which discussion with them facilitates.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by James Roscoe » Sun May 17, 2009 3:39 pm

Tim, I like your answer. I am in the midst of recession living. So I buy lots of ten dollar wines really meant for immediate drinking, typically CdR or similar blends. Robin often comments that such qpr-type wines might benefit from short-term aging. He usually says a couple of years. Does it depend on the blend, the producer, the vintage or a combination of all three, or should we just buy the wines and enjoy them for what they are at the time of purchase? I have gone both ways on this.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Tim York » Sun May 17, 2009 3:47 pm

James Roscoe wrote:Tim, I like your answer. I am in the midst of recession living. So I buy lots of ten dollar wines really meant for immediate drinking, typically CdR or similar blends. Robin often comments that such qpr-type wines might benefit from short-term aging. He usually says a couple of years. Does it depend on the blend, the producer, the vintage or a combination of all three, or should we just buy the wines and enjoy them for what they are at the time of purchase? I have gone both ways on this.


I suggest that, if your experiments with these $10 CdRs, etc. are not conclusive for you either way, then just enjoy the wines as they are.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Rahsaan » Sun May 17, 2009 3:51 pm

James Roscoe wrote:Does it depend on the blend, the producer, the vintage or a combination of all three...


Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Of course you can always post TNs, ask questions about specific wines, and spark discussion with other folks on the board :wink:
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Ian Sutton » Sun May 17, 2009 4:02 pm

Rahsaan wrote:
James Roscoe wrote:the merits of aging and how long to age.


Not sure what you're asking. Seems kind of general. It really depends on the specific vintage/cuvee/bottling. And of course on personal preferences.

Which is kind of the answer!

Let's walk through an imaginary life-cycle of a wine (those ITB or homewinemakers will be able to slot in pre-bottling thoughts which would make a great thread in their own right). Some of these comments might be disputed - we do have different experiences and perceptions:

Just bottled The wine has vibrant fruit, strong tannins & acidity, but is all a bit 'arms and legs' at the moment. The term 'bottle shock' broadly covers this. Those who make wine can give thoughts on how long this awkward phase lasts for, but I presume it varies by wine style. In some wine styles there might even be some low level CO2 remaining dissolved in the wine, giving it a light spritz (I saw this nicely illustrated in a bottle of Dr L riesling, where a quick but vigoourous shake of the opened, but re-sealed bottle made a noticeable difference).

I'll leave travel shock out, but personally find more logic to justify it in older bottles - with shaken sediment.

Just released Hopefully if the winery has let the wine settle down to overcome bottle shock, it should reach the first moment where someone might argue it hits peak. Let's say our wine has good ripe (not overripe) fruit, grippy tannins and thirst-quenching acidity. Some folks enjoy this vibrant hit, with high intensity and even the vice-like mouth-drying tannins. With the right food, this could be an ace match. However for other people & in other settings, the wine is too challenging, yet also lacking in subtlety and complexity. It's a face-full of fruit/tannins/acidity and after the initial impressive hit, might start to become tiresome. So they wait and cellar it

A few years later Not a lot might have changed. The tannins might have softened a bit, the fruit settled down a touch, maybe even a slight softening of the acidity. It's not vastly different to when released, for some a slight improvement, for others it still has little complexity or charm. They cellar longer.

closed period A slightly contentious concept, but some wine styles seem very susceptible to this (e.g. Burgundy, Barolo), but it's not something that we can be assertive about. What might happen, say 5-6 years into our notional wine's cellaring, is that the initial fruit vibrancy has dropped significantly, yet tannins and acidity remain strong and even feel stronger than before, as the balance has changed. The wine might feel like a shell. We might be a bit worried. In some instances this worry is well-founded, the tannins were too strong for the sadly short-term fruit and matching it to food can be a pain. However in other instances, there is hope, that in time as the tannins recede and the acidity softens, there will be something of interest there to emerge from the shadows. So we cellar on in hope.

Tertiary interest Primary = initial grape related flavours; Secondary = vinification influences including specific wine-making input; Tertiary= development of Primary/Secondary flavours to adopt a new flavour profile. Definition out of the way, that initial vibrant fruit, whilst softening has also (in part) transformed into a different flavour profile, other non-grapey flavours have emerged, some of them desirable, others less so, and these vary between different people's palates. Brett is a poor, but useful example. Arguably it's a secondary aroma, arguably a fault, but in small quantities it's initially perhaps difficult to detect, or offers just a touch of extra complexity. In time, it may grow (and grow) and create quite a stink when the bottle is opened. Our tolerence levels differ (I'm generally ok with it except for stink-bombs), others despair at the slightest whiff. What I like about this period, is that there's often a lot going on, at least in the good bottles. The wine warrants closer attention as some aromas may be fleeting and the wine can change significantly in the glass.

Old age This is perhaps more indicative of the trade-off. The initial fruit profile is fading into the background now and even the tertiary elements may be disappearing (though it's feasible that more have appeared since we last tasted it). Oxidative influence e.g. sherry-like may have emerged, some pleasant volatile acidity might now be getting too dominant, the wine may start to lose balance, with individual facets sticking out. The wine can change rapidly in the glass and move from divine complexity, to tired wreck in minutes. The wine might still be interesting and even enjoyable, yet for many they miss the charm it had a year or two ago. They've lost more than they've gained over this period and it's clear there isn't any comeback.

_______________________________________________

So a very simplistic walk through a notional wine. There are too many holes in the above to define a 'typical wine' and variations are many. I've not covered Audouzing / slow oxygenation, Biodynamics, nor the myriad of subtle variations, bottle variation, (partial) seal failure, mood variation, faults, matched food, etc. etc. So many issues cloud this. Some wines might just steadily fade from bottling to demise, with little or no tertiary aromas. Others may hold in limbo for year after year, then either emerge slowly into delight or imbalance. We make guesses based on what we taste & past history (plus notes of others), but we know the variables are so great we're always taking a bit of a punt.

FWIW I'm happy to risk hitting old age/decline as I find the flavours more interesting than more youthful flavours. For others that would be giving up what they like for a mixed bag of junk - yes it might hide a prized antique, but most often it's junk to them.

Sorry for the utter ramble - hopefully thought provoking.

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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Lou Kessler » Sun May 17, 2009 4:21 pm

Dale Williams wrote:I'm not sure there is that much debate going on here.

Is there anyone who thinks the majority of wine is helped by aging? I don't think so.

Is there anyone who thinks that "serious" versions of red Bordeaux, Burgundy, Rioja, and Piedmont don't benefit from aging? Again, I don't think so.

One can maybe get less consensus once you get to New World wines (except Dunn!). But since we have mostly discussed OW, there seem to be only a few disagreements:

1) Loire. David doesn't think Muscadet benefits from aging. Others (inc. me) do. I've enjoyed '88, '89, 90, and 95 Briords and/or L d'Or in recent years. Very different from the young versions, I liked a lot. I wouldn't age 99% of Muscadet, but I would those wines. I also think Chenin in the guise of great makers like Huet gains a lot of complexity with age. I'm less a fan of aging SB, but I've had a few older (as in 10 years, not 20) bottles of Vatan and Dagueneau that impressed. Still, I usually just drink SB young.

2) German Riesling. At Kab/Spat level I generally am just as happy to drink young, with the exception of a few producers, notably JJ Prum and von Schubert. I tend to prefer Auslese+ with age. On Donnhoff I'm beginning to lean more towards early drinking.

3) Bandol was mentioned in initial post. I don't drink much, or age any. But maybe we should organize a trip to Crabtrees Kittle House to see if they still have some of those 80s Pibarons and Pradeauxs at good prices, so we can discuss this more intelligently. :)

4) Rhone was also mentioned. I think FOR MY TASTES good Cote Rotie and Hermitage definitely benefits from some age.

We can certainly differ over particulars (I think David is overoptimistic re aging '01 modern Bdx RB satellites! He think I'm crazy to age Muscadet! etc). But no one is arguing over the vast majority of wines. Is there anyone who has a fair amount of experience with aged wines who would rank serious young Bordeaux or Burgundy (red or white) as better than their aged counterparts? Nor is anyone arguing for aging Beaujolais AC or Menetou-Salon for 20 years.

I don't think someone is a "lesser geek" for not sharing my preferences. But for me the complexity gained by aging is integral to most of my greatest wines ever tasted. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy some Bordeaux vintages ('97, '99) early, but they never for me (as a whole) hit the heights of great vintages with 20+ years.

There are more vintners in NO. CA. than just Dunn who have a hisory of aging. A problem as one of the prominent growers told me the other evening is global warming which is a fact as far as he is concerned and reflected in the local temps in the wine country. How will this affect wine made in CA?
By the way I still have some Domanie Tempiers from the 80s that are drinking beautifully and didn't when they were young.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Dave Erickson » Sun May 17, 2009 4:50 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:Is a wine that will give the most pleasure 15 years from now inherently better than one that will give lots of pleasure today? Objectively that really doesn't make sense to me.


I have always been under the impression--rightly or wrongly--that longevity in itself is prized for economic reasons. A wine bought to age is literally an investment in the future--I buy a case of 2005 Bordeaux in the expectation that in 10 or 12 years I'll be able to drink it and derive pleasure from it. I am, of course, leaving out the entirely separate idea of wine as monetary investment...I sold an awful lot of '05s to people by telling them to store them for 10 years and then selling them at a profit. I'm pretty sure it was good investment advice. :mrgreen:

As for the business of aging Rieslings, I recall attending a seminar many years ago sponsored by a group of vignerons from Alsace. The seminar's message was: "Age these wines for at least ten years. That way the fruit will be de-emphasized and you'll taste the true terroir." My response then, and now, was: "You guys are crazy. These wines are delicious right now. I love the fruit. Why should I wait all that time to get an effect I don't even care about?"

Thus proving me to be a true Philistine. :mrgreen: I'll take that title and wear it, while I open another '05 Albert Mann Grand Cru Schlossberg...so delicious!
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by David M. Bueker » Sun May 17, 2009 5:13 pm

James - there have been a number of Cotes du Rhone wines that I felt benefited from a year or two of bottle aging. I am really enjoying the '05s right now, though the freshness of the 2007s is very impressive.

Dave - young Riesling may be the most immediately delicious wine on the planet (IMO of course).
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Oswaldo Costa » Sun May 17, 2009 5:25 pm

Ian, good job!
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Victorwine » Sun May 17, 2009 7:18 pm

Nicely stated Ian!

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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Dale Williams » Sun May 17, 2009 7:53 pm

Lou Kessler wrote:less consensus once you get to New World wines (except Dunn!).There are more vintners in NO. CA. than just Dunn who have a hisory of aging. .


Of course, I was just using Dunn as the most prominent example that virtually everyone agrees needs substantial age. I've got old Mayacamas, and faith some younger ones will age. I've got a bottle of 60 BV GdlT holding for my 50th next year ( but less faith in younger BVs). I've loved lots of 70s Cabs (and PNs) in the last decade, including some from "lesser" names, like Burgess, Davis Bynum, etc. The question is not only warming, but style changes of course.

Ian, nice post.

James, in my personal opinion, there are plenty of wines that benefit from 1-3 years bottle age. In general, this isn't quite the same as a claret aging many many years- it might be a CdR where the tannins lose a rough edge, a Loire where the acids seem to smooth a bit, a cabernet based wine where the new oak integrates a bit. But a noticable and appreciated improvement. Actually, one of the types of wine I think can do well from a couple years in cellar is certain NV Champagnes.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by David M. Bueker » Sun May 17, 2009 7:57 pm

Dale Williams wrote:Actually, one of the types of wine I think can do well from a couple years in cellar is certain NV Champagnes.


That I fully agree with. It tends to round them out & deepen the fruit from what I can tell.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Bernard Roth » Sun May 17, 2009 8:17 pm

One thing that is not disputable is that someone with little or no experience with aged wine is going to have to take on faith the outcome of this debate.

Those of us with experience drinking aged wine (and it doesn't have to be decades!) can decide for ourselves.

So those in the former group will find that wines fall into two two polar categrories, with some falling somewhere in the middle.

At one end are wines that novices (I use that word advisedly, in context of experience with aged wine) enjoy young. At the other are wines that they do not enjoy young, but which have a reputation for improving with age. The novices can choose to enjoy the wines they know they enjoy young. They can also choose to take a chance based on reputation to buy some wine that they don't really like young, but cellar it for the "recommended time" and try it later.

It is hard to see how one "argues" the merits, given that the above choices are objectively stated and individuals tastes for aged wine are subjective.

The only additional piece of information that may help sway young novices who have not decided to lay some wine down is that people's tastes in wine do evolve. Even if you are sure you like young wine now, but not aged wine, there is a reasonable chance that you will begin to like aged wine - in time. If you can afford to set the wine in a cellar for 10-20 years, then decide you don't like it, you could recoup your investment + earnings as long as your storage is of high quality. If it isn't, you should not be aging wine even if you like aged wine.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Sam Platt » Mon May 18, 2009 8:01 am

In general, the few high end aged wines that I have tasted have been interesting, but not necessarily good tasting. For my palate the time and investment to acquire aged wines, or age the wines does not seem to pay off. Perhaps aged wines are an aquired taste and I simply do not have the requisite experience. That being said, I don't consider a 15 year old red Burg to be "aged". I love Burgs in the 12 to 15 year range. In general, my definition of "aged" would be 25+ years.
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by Oswaldo Costa » Mon May 18, 2009 9:31 am

Sam Platt wrote:In general, my definition of "aged" would be 25+ years.


All relative, no? Very roughly speaking, I would consider "aged":
one year old Beaujolais Nouveau :lol:
five year old Sancerre or village Burg
ten year old cru Beaujolais or premier cru Burg
fifteen year old grand cru Burg
twenty year old GCC Bordeaux
fifty year old port
seventy five year old madeira
hundred year old sherry
two hundred year old Thomas Jefferson :wink:
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by David M. Bueker » Mon May 18, 2009 11:51 am

Oswaldo,

50 year old Port? That's pushing it in most cases.

Of course I am trying to keep the conversation going. Your quick list of what you consider aged is very interesting.

My take on the issue (for types I know reasonably well as both young and old wine) for "top" examples of their type

20 year old classed Bordeaux (agree)
10 year old village Burg (little older)
15 year old premier cru Burg (again a little older)
15 year old Chateauneuf
20 year old Cornas/Hermitage/Cote Rotie
7 year old Riesling Kabinett
12 year old Riesling Spatlese
15 year old Riesling Auslese
10 year old Riesling Eiswein
30 year old Vintage Port (a lot younger than yours)
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Re: The merits of aging wine - let's have the debate

by wrcstl » Mon May 18, 2009 12:17 pm

Let me try and put another spin on aging. Based on the comments here I will have to agree with Dale and many others. If you have great Bordeaux, Piedmonts et al, they need aged. Most wines do not need to be aged and may be less exciting after about 3-4 years. Having said that I will offer the comment that a majority of wines need 6-12 months. I have been tasting a lot of relatively inexpensive '97 So Rhones and they are great but they lack integration. IMHO these wines will be much better in 6-12 months but after that will only change, not necessarilly for the better. Most well made wines need some rest time and this goes for whites as well as reds.
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