World-wide Riesling tasting..a great report here!!

I love riesling but I am not too good with the whole age thing. Just curious how more experienced riesling appreciators on the site would interpret the notes on the Donnoff. It sounds pretty impressive, so would it be most likely that the time to drink this wine is now?

This is a little bit of a controversial topic.

There is a school of thought which holds that Donnhoff's wines might not be built to last [for the really long haul].

But for those of us [or of you] who are still around in 30 or 40 years, I guess that time will tell, and we [or you] will discover the answer to that question.

In the meantime, though, I wouldn't waste too much time worrying that I had opened a wine too early if I had enjoyed drinking it as it was when I chose to open it.

Yeah that's true Nathan, the bottom line is if the wine was enjoyable. I definitely wasn't thinking 30 or 40 years, by that time my heirs will be enjoying anything that's left of my wine! So I think what I'll do is enjoy a bottle soon and if it's really great keep popping them until my 1/2 case is gone, and if it's not entirely irresistible go back in a year and sample them again. Tom V

Oswaldo: the Egon Müller Spätlese is as good as it sounds ... and even better.

Thomas: thanks for the recos. A friend of mine imports Wiemer and I had a few Johannisberger (semi-dry and dry): 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002 ... It is very good stuff (probably the best riesling that I have tasted from outside of the classical parts of Europe) but develops petrol tones after 6-7 years. We had it already in a comparative (double blind) tasting and it did really not do well ... Never heard of the other one, I will search

Did it not do well because of the petrol tones?

I've always found that one of the hallmarks of the variety, as it ages, even in German wines.

I like the best Rieslings of New Zealand, but their style is different from Germany, Alsace & Austria. Unless flights are organized with greater care than the ones in the referenced tasting, stylistic differences can appear instead as quality differences,

I agree, David. In many proclamations and opinions, stylistic differences often eclipse quality.

As writer Dan Berger points out, a lot of wine drinkers haven't learned how to focus on the merits of the wines in front of them rather than compare them to their favorite region. Granted, it's difficult not to compare one thing with something you already know and love, but if wine is anything it is a unique, individual product, and here is where that elusive concept of "terroir" plays a big role, to those of us who believe in it, of course...

[David M. Bueker]

FYI - I am firmly in the camp that says Donnhoff wines age very, very well. This is especially true of his auslesen, but given the ripeness levels we see these days what was once auslese is now spatlese.

I've always found that one of the hallmarks of the variety, as it ages, even in German wines.

That is not a characteristic of Riesling per se, but one of riesling grown in certain soil. In Alsace for example Muschelkalk is famous for giving wines that "get petrolly" with age, ("ils se pétrolent").

Greetings / Fredrik L

I've always found that one of the hallmarks of the variety, as it ages, even in German wines.

That is not a characteristic of Riesling per se, but one of riesling grown in certain soil. In Alsace for example Muschelkalk is famous for giving wines that "get petrolly" with age, ("ils se pétrolent").

Greetings / Fredrik L

Fredrik, you bring up soil in a discussion and you'll find yourself in a terroir argument.

In any case, I recall aged German Rieslings, both Rhein and Mosel, that pick up the petrol quality--but they have to be somewhat aged. There's been a lot of back and forth over the issue, some say soil only; some say sulfur reacting with other things; some say it's inherent in Riesling, especially using other grape varieties that grow within the same region as Riesling but not offering that petrol quality; others say many other things, I am sure.

In my view, when someones says something definitively, I prefer knowing from where the information comes--a study? Which one?

As an aside, I don't find the petrol offensive--rather interesting, but then I love the smell of gasoline, so long as it isn't called Niagara...

I'm wondering if anyone here (David?) has tasted the star of the report, the 2005 Egon Müller Scharzhofberger Riesling Spätlese.

No, but I have had Reichsgraf von Kesselstatt Scharzhofberger Riesling Spatlese 2005 - and if I hadn't been 'told' it was labelled spatlese and then seen the label, I would had thought it a dead ringer for what I had always considered a beerenauslese. The luscious nectar is pretty seductive and not hard to fall in love with. I'll post notes separately.

The report doesn't indicate how sweet the Egon Muller was - I'm assuming it was typical for 2005 as it seduced the writer and made him lost for words.

Thanks, J. and Sue.

Pardon the ignorance, but do the A.P. numbers listed after these spatleses only indicate the date of bottling, or do they convey any sweetness information?

[David M. Bueker]

No sweetness info in the AP numbers. It's merely the order in which the wine from that producer went to the official testing station plus the year it was presented (in addition to all the other useless numbers prior to the final 4).

As for petrol in Riesling, Tom Stevenson gave a chemical explanation in the next to latest issue of World of Fine Wine. He relates that it is due to a breakdown in beta carotine (Riesling apparently has a lot of it), not from a soil reaction. If indeed it is just a breakdown of something inherent to the grape itself that might also explain how the petrol sometimes goes away with further bottle age - the compound perhaps breaks down even further.

As for a pattern - I have never found a fool-proof way to predict petrol becoming a factor in any individual wine.

As for petrol in Riesling, Tom Stevenson gave a chemical explanation in the next to latest issue of World of Fine Wine. He relates that it is due to a breakdown in beta carotine (Riesling apparently has a lot of it), not from a soil reaction. If indeed it is just a breakdown of something inherent to the grape itself that might also explain how the petrol sometimes goes away with further bottle age - the compound perhaps breaks down even further.

As for a pattern - I have never found a fool-proof way to predict petrol becoming a factor in any individual wine.

With you there on the last comment, David. I've found petrol in Australia, NZ, German and Alsace Rieslings.
There was a fab discussion on Petrol in Riesling on the original WLDG back in 2002. I saved a copy.
Terry Thiese, Emile Peynaud and Yair Margalit were quoted but probably the most academic reply came from 'Jane' who I believe was involved with UC Davis. She said (of the petrol aromas) that it " ....stems from TDN, and under acidic (wine) conditions, increases with age. Its precursor, 3,4-dihydroxy-7,8-dihydro-b-ionine, is produced in the grape and can be manipulated with sunlight exposure, i.e., the more sunlight, the more potential TDN in the aged wine. "
Paul W and Florida Jim (both still active now) were involved in the discussion at the time.

Then I am puzzled because David Schildknetch gives 91 points to the 2005 Egon Muller Scharzhofberger Riesling Spatlese A P #4 and 95 points to the 2005 Egon Muller Scharzhofberger Riesling Spatlese A P #5...

No sweetness info in the AP numbers. It's merely the order in which the wine from that producer went to the official testing station plus the year it was presented (in addition to all the other useless numbers prior to the final 4).

As for petrol in Riesling, Tom Stevenson gave a chemical explanation in the next to latest issue of World of Fine Wine. He relates that it is due to a breakdown in beta carotine (Riesling apparently has a lot of it), not from a soil reaction. If indeed it is just a breakdown of something inherent to the grape itself that might also explain how the petrol sometimes goes away with further bottle age - the compound perhaps breaks down even further.

As for a pattern - I have never found a fool-proof way to predict petrol becoming a factor in any individual wine.

Thanks, David. I had forgotten about that explanation.

I've read that some Native American grapes are high in beta carotine...ah, the smell of Niagara! And I know that celery and carrots often remind me of petrol.

As for the pattern, that's where it's really interesting. In my view, it must have also to do with vintage conditions (if it's beta carotine, maybe in some years the grape doesn't build enough of it).

Of course, I am left with the question: don't other wine grapes contain beta carotine?

Then I am puzzled because David Schildknetch gives 91 points to the 2005 Egon Muller Scharzhofberger Riesling Spatlese A P #4 and 95 points to the 2005 Egon Muller Scharzhofberger Riesling Spatlese A P #5...

They are definitely different cuvees. But David's point was only that the different numbers do not tell you which one has more residual sugar.

[David M. Bueker]

Then I am puzzled because David Schildknetch gives 91 points to the 2005 Egon Muller Scharzhofberger Riesling Spatlese A P #4 and 95 points to the 2005 Egon Muller Scharzhofberger Riesling Spatlese A P #5...

They are definitely different cuvees. But David's point was only that the different numbers do not tell you which one has more residual sugar.

And while sweeter wines inexplicably tend to garner more points, David Schildknecht does not always follow that pattern.

The separate AP numbers indicate diferent submittals & could be different picking dates, different sectors of the vineyard, etc.

Goodness what a great discussion! Who started this..oh I did!!!
Seriously, I have learnt a lot this weekend.

Quick ones ...

thomas: on your question whether wiemer suffered from the petrol notes - the answer is yes. this should not start to be too apparent in a good riesling at the age of 6-7. actually, it should never be too apparent. i am glad for the article by tom stevenson digged out by david here because petrol notes are not a sign of terroir but rather a sign of premature aging (this is based on my experience) - i have had all sorts of terroir and good riesling remains good riesling and shoud show minerals and fruit... and if there is a slight hint of petrol in the very background, why not ... it can add complexity

(edited for another point: in german off-dry riesling, I find that petrol notes are often a sign of lack of physiological ripeness - could there be a correlation?)

oswaldo: the egon müller scharzhofeberger spätlese -4- is the regular one while the -5- is the auction one. they have very similar rs (60g/l) but the auction -5- is made from better grapes (all relative of course, already the -4- is heaven) and is probably the single best young spätlese that i have tasted. it has an inner balance that is surrreal. i bought it massively at the auction in 2006

Wow, I've also learned a lot in a hurry here, brilliant thread!

On petrol in riesling, I have heard (third hand) that John Vickery, Australian riesling guru responsible for the Leo Buring wines of the 1970's, believes the petrol character comes from grapes getting excessive direct sun exposure. That would be consistent with the "Jane" explanation,

cheers

Andrew

Quick ones ...

thomas: on your question whether wiemer suffered from the petrol notes - the answer is yes. this should not start to be too apparent in a good riesling at the age of 6-7.

Interesting point: raises another reason for me to appreciate double blind tastings. I wonder what a wine like that would score if you knew absolutely nothing more about it, other than perhaps that it was a Riesling.

In other words, I wonder how many tasters would have realized that the wine was too young to have the quality that many Rieslings have with a little more age.

I've never believed petrol is the result of terroir. But if petrol is a sign of premature aging--why only in Riesling? There must be a chemistry to the grape involved, and is it aging in the bottle or is it the original condition of the grapes that guides the course? Questions that have yet to be answered, as far as I can tell. So long as these questions are on the table, I am neither prepared to accept nor to formulate an opinion on the matter.

Also, without knowing the answers to the questions, who determines how old Riesling must be before petrol should or does show up?

Thank you, J., that was the missing piece in my A.P. puzzle. And thank you all for a great thread. If this ain't what this board is for, I don't know what else...

Thomas, as I mentioned, I did have it once in a double blind tasting (early 2007) with only "Riesling" as info. The combination of apparent petrol and rather youthful fruit in the Wiemer was really not appealing when compared to the youthful fruit, complexity, playfulness of some of the other wines. All the wines were more or less of the same age (2000-2001-2002) but we didn't know it in advance. I would have to look up what we finally ended up having but it contained I remember (because it won!) the Hirtzberger Singerriedel Smaragd 2001, a Grünhaus QbA Trocken 2001 (because it stunned everybody). There was also a Franken from Wirsching, some Pfalz stuff as well as the unavoidable Alsatians. Oh, before I forget, there was also a Gosset Polish Hill and also that one went "under" in comparison ... It was kind of interesting because the organiser played tricks on us and assured that all wines were European ...

As to why Riesling develops petrol, there was some explanation given here regarding beta-carotin - but quite frankly I have also no real hard evidence as to what plays a role now in the development of petrol. From my own experience, there is a higher proportion of Mosel Riesling with a noticeable petrol tone in 1991, 1998 and 2000 than in other recent vintages, hence my theory about ripeness ... And I have also heard this mentioned I think by Thomas Haag from Weingut Schloss Lieser. All very circunstantial rather than hard facts, I agree ...

I've never believed petrol is the result of terroir... There must be a chemistry to the grape involved, and is it aging in the bottle or is it the original condition of the grapes that guides the course?

As far as I've seen, 1,1,6-trimethyl-1,2-dihydronaphthalene is responsible for the petrol aroma [Simpson, Chem. Ind., 1978; Winterhalter, J. Agric. Food. Chem., 1991] and there are at least two TDN precursors in Riesling grapes [Versini et al., Vitis, 1996]. Since you need the precursor and hydrolysis of the precursor to get TDN, it's certain that its presence is dependent (at least partially) on the winemaking (e.g., temperature, DO, pH, SO2 can all affect it [Silva Ferreira, J. Agric. Food. Chem., 2002]). I remember reading one study which suggested that the presence/concentration of at least one precursor was affected by sunlight exposure, but I can't remember where - maybe John Vickery and "Jane" mentioned above knew of this (plus maybe it's witnessed by experience). I could easily believe that the aroma is affected (indirectly, due to the presence/concentration of the precursor) by the site conditions (terroir) aswell - why not? I have not read the article by Tom Stevenson - anyone know what it says about all this?

That sunlight exposure plays a part also (potentially) fits my experience, since I actually find that those Aussie Rieslings that develop the petrol/kerosene aroma more often seem to do it earlier in bottle than do the German Rieslings which develop it. In Australia this aroma has historically been considered a fault in judging circles, which is interesting given that it's considered a positive attribute by many/most German Riesling wine lovers. It may be that the New World institutes see it this way because of its connection to "premature ageing" research in general.

On petrol in riesling, I have heard (third hand) that John Vickery, Australian riesling guru responsible for the Leo Buring wines of the 1970's, believes the petrol character comes from grapes getting excessive direct sun exposure. Andrew

A belief confirmed by research studies, notably Marais et al in 1992.

Marais, J., Van Wyk, C.J. & Rapp, A., 1992a. Effect of sunlight and shade on
norisoprenoid levels in maturing Weisser Riesling and Chenin blanc grapes and
Weisser Riesling wines. S. Afr. J. Enol. Vitic. 13, 23-32.

Greetings / Fredrik L

As we can see from Ben's and Fredrik's posts, the answer is still elusive (incidentally, I've always suspected SO2 to have some influence on the petrol event).

Yet, I see no evidence that anyone knows how or when to assign a petrol quality based on the wine's age. That practice seems to be arbitrary, and that's not fair to winemakers the world over, unless they agree to the terms when their wines are subjected to sensory competitions.

[David M. Bueker]

Yet, I see no evidence that anyone knows how or when to assign a petrol quality based on the wine's age. That practice seems to be arbitrary, and that's not fair to winemakers the world over, unless they agree to the terms when their wines are subjected to sensory competitions.

I doubt there can be any formal assignment based on age. Wines from different areas will show differently, and every time you think you have it figured out a wine will stare you in the face and yell "HAH! You didn't expect this from me did you buddy!"

The wine always has the last word, and it's generally a word you're not expecting.

And all of this becomes even more difficult when you are dealing with a component that is not universally liked.