Do you hate Bordeaux?

Alex

I agree with most you write, especially about the confusion between Grand Cru Classé and Bordeaux, also the food dimension, which surprise me that in USA it is seen as a bad food combination, I think it is a very good combination.

However, one question: Hasn't the Grand Cru Classé and other fine Bordeaux as a whole alienated wine lovers by the price increases?

I turned my back on Bordeaux 96! From 95 to 97 prices went up 100- 200 %. For me it was a pure quality/ price ratio thing and there where so many wines with better values. Today most wine lovers seems to do the same. Who is to blame?

One can see some things:
1) We have no official information about supply. It APPEARS that the Bordelais release the wines in a way and in quantities that will push up prices despite a larger supply than the price would indicate. Most, as me, with a professional insight in quantities on the market, get a very clear impression that the supply is kept short to push up prices. With the rest beeing portioned out by merchants after the price setting en primeure campaigns. This is felt and seen by wine lovers and it create resentment.

2) Quality is a subjective thing, the more expensive they get the more they seems to be drunk to "show off" and less for the taste. People who drinks for the taste tend to see price as a limiting factor. This is very evident in traditional Grand Cru Classe markets as Luxembourg and Belgium where recent campaigns were received lukewarm among the consumers and traders have larger stocks than anticipated and are worried.

3) Most wine lovers that started drinking before the 21st century had Bordeaux as its first love and are therefore emotionally attached. If you feel you no longer can buy or can justify the price of this first love you get angry and resentful in a slight irrational but understandable way.

Therefore I predict that Grand Cru Classe will lose popularity among wine lovers being more a sign of prestige. (For sure fine Bordeaux always have had this dimension, but it is increasing the last ten years).

I also predict that many wine lovers will talk bad about Grand Cru Classe and other expensive Bordeaux. I can already see this is evident.

I also predict that in ten years time drinking Grand Cru Classe will be seen as sign of "old fashion", snobbery and lack of style. That it will get a "new rich" attitude over it and drinking it might become a sign of lack of awareness maybe even stupidity.

As I think this is a rather evident development at the moment I think the ones to blame are the bordelais, no one else.

The solution? Maybe the only solution is to follow the path of other such wines for example Dom Perignon, and put a large effort into attract the new customer with the right life style and image positioning. To regain more respect and attachment from wine lovers there is only one thing to do; the prices have to go down, probably to 50- 60% of todays prices.

Best
Fredrik Svensson, Luxembourg

[David M. Bueker]

Wake me up when Bordeaux can deliver consistent satisfaction in the $9.99 to $14.99 range.

There is a lot of good Bordeaux in this price bracket (at least, good enough for me). I wrote notes about a couple in last month's "value" Wine Focus. The difficulty consists in unearthing them amongst a lot of dross, which means that I experiment on solid recommendation only. Robin had promised us a Wine Focus on budget Bordeaux so let us see what that turns up; I may for once try the lucky dip in the supermarkets.

I think the real issue is that not much value Bordeaux makes it to the USA. A few have come in, but of course with the Euro what it is against the dollar the prices have shot up 30-50% with no action at all by the Bordelais. I've found wines like La Prade and Cap de Faugeres to be excellent values, but they are now north of $20 and climbing higher.

[David M. Bueker]

But to answer the original question: no I do not hate Bordeaux. I love to drink Bordeaux. I'm not buying any more right now, but I have a solid supply maturing in the cellar, so there's no need.

Frederik has made some good points here, on which I would like to comment.

2) Quality is a subjective thing, the more expensive they get the more they seems to be drunk to "show off" and less for the taste. People who drinks for the taste tend to see price as a limiting factor. This is very evident in traditional Grand Cru Classe markets as Luxembourg and Belgium where recent campaigns were received lukewarm among the consumers and traders have larger stocks than anticipated and are worried.

As far as I can see, it is only the 1er crus and the "super-seconds" from Médoc and their equivalents from Saint-Emilion, Pomerol and Pessac-Léognan where the prices have gone completely stupid for Europeans. It would be interesting to know whether the customers' lukewarm reactions applies also to the more reasonably priced lower grands crus and crus bourgeois. It would also be interesting to know whether customers are becoming lukewarm to wines from all regions in these price brackets or whether Bordeaux is particularly affected. It is my personal view that Bordeaux in the upper-middle (say € 20 - 60) price bracket is competitive in quality with similarly priced wines from other European regions, for example Burgundy, Northern Rhône, Barolo, Barbaresco, Tuscany, Rioja, Ribera del Duero, and is much better value than most from California.

3) Most wine lovers that started drinking before the 21st century had Bordeaux as its first love and are therefore emotionally attached. If you feel you no longer can buy or can justify the price of this first love you get angry and resentful in a slight irrational but understandable way.

I share this emotional reaction. However I put a slightly different slant on this. When I first started drinking wine in the 60s,the price of fine Bordeaux (e.g. the crus which are now "super-seconds") was still accessible to a young professional person, as I then was. I and many like me were therefore able to learn fine wine though the superb qualities of these growths, which we used them as reference points. Good though they can be, Bordeaux in the now accessible price range does not have those unique qualities and will not be used reference points for new generations of wine lovers. For these, the Bordeaux area will just take its place along with many others as a purveyor of fine wine without enjoying special affection or status.


It seems to me that top Bordeaux châteaux have taken a conscious decision to abandon their traditional professional class clientèle in Europe and possibly America in favour of a new rich clientèle in Russia and Asia and also amongst financial geniuses from Wall Street and London City (successful Kerviels?), dot.com billionaires, show-bizz stars and their like. This is a risky strategy, which may pay off, but could also come unstuck quite soon if the present slow-down turns into a general recession with wide-spread bankruptcies. Furthermore I am not sure how deep-rooted fine wine drinking will become amongst the Asiatic rich. It is fashionable now but they could turn quickly to another craze. The disaffection of Asian markets from brandy in favour of wine could be instructive in this respect.

[David M. Bueker]

I don't really believe that the Bordelais have abandoned their traditional markets, so much as other people in their traditional markets have stepped forward with immense wealth and little understanding other than "the 1st growths are great", thus leading them to spend stupid money for Latour, Petrus and the like. For a few years this was not much of a problem unless one was emotionally wedded to a 1st growth/equivalent or a super-second such as Las Cases.

The difference today is that the upward pressure on prices has hit some of the stalwart values (e.g. Leoville Barton now edging close to $90 on first tranche futures).

What I do find funny is that there is perhaps today more resistance to paying $35-$40 for a wine like Sociando-Mallet or La Lagune than there is to paying $500+ for a 1st growth. It seems that a price rise over time from $20 to $40 is more damaging than a rise from $100 to $500.

What I do find funny is that there is perhaps today more resistance to paying $35-$40 for a wine like Sociando-Mallet or La Lagune than there is to paying $500+ for a 1st growth. It seems that a price rise over time from $20 to $40 is more damaging than a rise from $100 to $500.

I've been reading a spate of articles lately about the decline of the middle classes in America and Europe. If this is correct, price resistance in the $20-40 bracket is more easily explained. I have also read that the City in London is at this moment paying still generous bonuses to its stars (many over seven figures) in spite of all the problems in the credit market in 2007 and even more doubtful prospects for 2008; it is probably the same on Wall Street. What is $500 for these people?

[David M. Bueker]

I've been reading a spate of articles lately about the decline of the middle classes in America and Europe. If this is correct, price resistance in the $20-40 bracket is more easily explained.

Middle class America (the real middle class, not the well off folks that just like to think of themselves as middle class) hasn't really been a customer for Bordeaux in a long, long time.

I actually am waiting to hear of a fall off in the sales of cute animal label wines as more and more true middle class folks choose to buy actual food (and gasoline) over a bottle of $6.99 wine.

Middle class America (the real middle class, not the well off folks that just like to think of themselves as middle class) hasn't really been a customer for Bordeaux in a long, long time.

Maybe we have a problem of definition here. Aren't professional people, doctors, lawyers, accountants, university professors, etc. and business executives considered (upper?) middle class in America? People like these formed the bedrock of fine Bordeaux drinking in Europe. Many except the stars of these professions tend to be under pressure these days.

[David M. Bueker]

Middle class America (the real middle class, not the well off folks that just like to think of themselves as middle class) hasn't really been a customer for Bordeaux in a long, long time.

Maybe we have a problem of definition here. Aren't professional people, doctors, lawyers, accountants, university professors, etc. and business executives considered (upper?) middle class in America? People like these formed the bedrock of fine Bordeaux drinking in Europe. Many except the stars of these professions tend to be under pressure these days.

We could get into all kinds of discussions about definitions and also how the middle/upper-middle classes spend money (e.g. huge McMansions & expensive cars that seriously stretch their funds), but would never reach any conclusions.

Anyway, the vast majority of such people that I know (except for hard core geeks) drink California Merlot & Chardonnay and Australian Shiraz, and have done so for years now.

But, as been pointed out, you have to be kidding if you think any wine from, let's say, Châteauneuf-du-Pape has the sheer elegance of a 1961 Palmer!

Have you priced Palmer recently?

Even in the "off" vintages?

Anyway, the vast majority of such people that I know (except for hard core geeks) drink California Merlot & Chardonnay and Australian Shiraz, and have done so for years now.

David,
You need to get some new friends. In one sentence you mentioned my three least favorite wines. In my cellar is one bottle of merlot ('91 Beringer Howell Mtn), two bottles of '91 OZ Shiraz that was brought back from vacation and probably not drinkable and no CA chardonnay. If you were nearer I would be your friend and try and help you work through this.
Walt

[David M. Bueker]

Anyway, the vast majority of such people that I know (except for hard core geeks) drink California Merlot & Chardonnay and Australian Shiraz, and have done so for years now.

David,
You need to get some new friends. In one sentence you mentioned my three least favorite wines. In my cellar is one bottle of merlot ('91 Beringer Howell Mtn), two bottles of '91 OZ Shiraz that was brought back from vacation and probably not drinkable and no CA chardonnay. If you were nearer I would be your friend and try and help you work through this.
Walt

You would be welcome Walt.

I have lots of geek friends, and I am busy converting some non-geek friends to the high church of Riesling (I refuse to convert anyone to Burgundy - the pews are full enough). The biggest example of the Merlot/Shiraz/Chard drinkers are otehr managers at work who drink Merlot and Shiraz while their wives drink Chardonnay (cliché but it's true in many cases).

Interesting that "Bordeaux" seems to mean "Red Bordeaux" and one is not thinking of the lightest reds, either.

Have you priced white bordeaux recently?

HB Blanc, LHB [Blanc], SHL Blanc, DdC Blanc, Ygrec?

Not quite as bad as the reds, but still - not for the faint of heart.

And apparently Suckling just gave the 2005 HB Blanc 100 points, so it'll be heading for $500+.

Maybe even $750.

Interesting that "Bordeaux" seems to mean "Red Bordeaux" and one is not thinking of the lightest reds, either.

Have you priced white bordeaux recently?

There is also very decent white Bordeaux available in the $9.99 - 14.99 bracket; over here. Ch. Bonnet and Ch. Reynon are two fresh and fruity examples which I have had recently.

I am a fan of Rioja but as far as aromatics the nose of an old Bordeaux cannot be surpassed.
Walt

You must be joking! They can, have and continue to be surpassed.

Have you ever tried Château Palmer 1961, Joe? And there are many other great Bordeaux with an ethereally beautiful nose. It is a matter of taste whether one prefers, say, superb Bordeaux, burgundy or German riesling (or, say, the music of Beethoven, Mozart or Bach), but I would not put any Rioja which has come my way in quite that league of distinction (say, the equivalent of Schumann or Berlioz).

No. Have you had 1947 Bosconia?

Frederick,

Yes, I agree, the exaggeratedly high prices for the "name wines" in recent years have given a bad name to Bordeaux as a whole since so many people are unaware of the various categories within this huge appellation.
In short, there is a domino effect, as unfair as this may be.
As we all know, psychologogy matters when it comes to markets...

The point was also raised about holding on to traditional markets and Tim mentioned the growing demand in Russia and Asia. This is a good point.
Will the Bordelais turn their backs on their long-time customers in favor of exciting, rich new ones?
I'm wondering the same thing about Cuban cigars. Sooner or later, the US will be doing business with Cuba. There is a gigantic market for Cuban cigars in America. Will the Cubans supply this at the expense of such traditional markets as Spain where I buy mine?

Randy,

I've been eating Bordeaux and cheese for a few decades. The only cheeses really not suited to Bordeaux are the smelly ones that overpower the flavor of the wine.
Honestly, a ripe, runny brie is a delight with any red Bordeaux.
That's one example among many others.
Traditionally, Dutch cheese is the ideal partner for a great Bordeaux. It is tasty, but not strong. And there are historic reasons for this as well. The "crôute rouge" Edam originally owes its color to cheese shipped to Bordeaux in barrels that had been used to hold wine!

Nathan,

When you speak of Bordeaux whites, you cite HB Blanc, LHB [Blanc], SHL Blanc, DdC Blanc, and Ygrec. These are at the very tip of the iceberg. And yes, their pricing is every bit as volatile as the great red wines.
But you can find good white Bordeaux for ridiculously cheap prices. I'm talking 4 and 5 euros a bottle!
These are best consumed within a year of the vintage.
They don't have the richness of white Burgundy, but they are well suited for the table, especially seafood.

Best regards,
Alex R.

No. Have you had 1947 Bosconia?

No, but I live in hope.

I'm still new to good wine and still learning, and I've never had a classed-growth Bordeaux of any kind, or indeed an aged wine from one of the lesser Chateaux.

However, I feel the need to opine that every single one of the left-bank examples I've tasted, all of which have been in the £10-£20 range, rank amongst the very best wines that I've had. I can't say that about any other region of any country, including Burgundy.

I find it depressing that I don't have the financial means to enjoy top-class Bordeaux or the space to cellar it and give it the time it needs, and that even if I did I'd consider spending such astronomical prices on wine offensively wasteful. But I certainly don't "hate" it - and indeed to make such a blanket and extreme comment about what is unarguably well-made wine smacks of self-delusion. I'm going to carry on buying and enjoying my mid-priced, drink-now (or soon) Bordeaux whatever the rest of the wine world thinks.

Honestly, a ripe, runny brie is a delight with any red Bordeaux.

.

Would you risk a fine mature Médoc with a runny brie? I wouldn't; I fear that it would be dead. A young vigorous one might be OK.

Traditionally, Dutch cheese is the ideal partner for a great Bordeaux. It is tasty, but not strong. And there are historic reasons for this as well. The "crôute rouge" Edam originally owes its color to cheese shipped to Bordeaux in barrels that had been used to hold wine!

That's much more like it! I would stick to hard textured cheese with mature claret. A fine cheddar or cantal salers, for example, also do well.

. By the way, I don't think Bordeaux reds go well most cheeses. This is pretty subjective territory, but there is what I consider to be a false truism about wine & cheese making one think of a baguette, a Bordeaux and some stinky melty glob. What cheese goes with Bordeaux red?.

Indeed, what matches with a wine tends to be even more subjective than questions of quality. I agree with you that I don't find most cheeses to be a very good match. My tastes with red Bordeaux tend to run to drier/harder sheep and cow milk cheeses. Aged gouda, a real Cheddar like Montgomery or Quickes, manchego. I even like Mimolette.

It would be interesting to know whether the customers' lukewarm reactions applies also to the more reasonably priced lower grands crus and crus bourgeois. It would also be interesting to know whether customers are becoming lukewarm to wines from all regions in these price brackets or whether Bordeaux is particularly affected.

In my experience it is evident that wines around 30 € from all areas have been hard sales while 100 € and above attracts an audience. Not only new rich but also people buying for presents etc.
However it is my feeling that sales of 30- 70 € wines are increasingly interesting for the consumers in Europe, but that they may look increasingly elsewere thatn Bordeaux.
In my experience it was the same between 1995 to 2000, and then it took a break until now!

I share this emotional reaction. However I put a slightly different slant on this. When I first started drinking wine in the 60s,the price of fine Bordeaux (e.g. the crus which are now "super-seconds") was still accessible to a young professional person, as I then was. I and many like me were therefore able to learn fine wine though the superb qualities of these growths, which we used them as reference points. Good though they can be, Bordeaux in the now accessible price range does not have those unique qualities and will not be used reference points for new generations of wine lovers. For these, the Bordeaux area will just take its place along with many others as a purveyor of fine wine without enjoying special affection or status.

Very well put. I share this view 100% and also the same expereince, just that I entered drinking them in late 80s early 90s. As a student I bought Premier crus (83s 85s and 86s at 50- 70 €), now I make about ten times more money than I did then and I dont even contemplate buying a premier cru.

Best
Fredrik Svensson

Interesting that "Bordeaux" seems to mean "Red Bordeaux" and one is not thinking of the lightest reds, either.

Have you priced white bordeaux recently?

There is also very decent white Bordeaux available in the $9.99 - 14.99 bracket; over here. Ch. Bonnet and Ch. Reynon are two fresh and fruity examples which I have had recently.

I've never heard of either of those labels, and there aren't exactly a lot of hits at Wine-Searcher:

Reynon Blanc

Bonnet Blanc

By the way, it looks like Bonnet is Entre Deux Mers, which isn't exactly what I'd call "Bordeaux".

[Calling EDM "Bordeaux" is akin to calling the Languedoc "Côte-Rôtie".]

Which is not to say that they might not be very nice wines - I'll have to take your word on that.

But judging from how few hits there are at Wine-Searcher, I doubt that I'll ever see a bottle of either one of them.

[David M. Bueker]

By the way, it looks like Bonnet is Entre Deux Mers, which isn't exactly what I'd call "Bordeaux".

Nice of you to redefine a wine region that predates you by several hundred years. When can we expect your revised and updated Oxford Companion to Wine?

Wake me up when Bordeaux can deliver consistent satisfaction in the $9.99 to $14.99 range.

Nathan,

It is becoming very hard to find any Bordeaux in that price range these days. It seems to me that $20 is becoming the quality floor for Bordeaux. Although I have found a few solid selections in the $18-$20 range in the last year. The 2000 La Fleur Haut-Bages Liberal comes to mind. I fear that you will be snoozing for a long time.

For quality in the $10-$15 range I have been turning to South Africa and Portugal lately.