Why don't you like Riesling?

Good thread here eh. I am a big Riesling fan.....Austria, Oz, Germany but always seem to prefer cellaring for some time. All the comments here are valid and I agree level of sweetness on back label would help.

Bob H wrote.....I like an off dry riesling more than the tooth enamel etching acidity of many rieslings from OZ including the Clare valley.
Just put them in the cellar and age alongside those Tahbilk Marsannes!!

Bob, so many wines, so little room in the cellar.

Agree Bob. I have put on my thinking cap (dangerous) and am now wondering about food/wine matches. Good place to ask this question is the Oz forum so off I go! Like you, master, have my own ideas but prepared to learn.

I can understand the many complaints that wine drinkers have against Riesling and German Riesling in particular. The vineyard classification system in Germany is indeed a complicated mess (even far more so than the runner-up of consumer unfriendliness that is Burgundy –a region which of course that has far more fans across the globe.) There are two major spheres of influence in Germany, the VDP (Verband Deutsche Prädikatsweingüter) and the DWI (Deutsche Wein Institute) that can’t seem to streamline their ideas or agree on the best way to classify (market) German wine. I think much of the problem lies in the two parties trying to rectify the insanity that came from the reformation of German wine law in 1971 and its application to what many consumers currently regard as an ‘outdated’ AOC system championed in France and elsewhere in Europe, but one that is losing ground to easily understood mono-varietal labeling employed in the new world. At the forefront of the clash between the two groups is which vineyards can be classified as Premier AND/OR Grand Cru (also confusingly labeled Erstes Gewächs in the Rheingau, Erste Lage in the Mosel, and Grosses Gewächs everywhere else) and the labeling requirements having as much to do with membership (in the case of the VDP) as other factors such as hand harvesting, maximum yield, minimum must weight, and sensory panel approval. While the many highly-prized vineyards throughout Germany do fetch higher prices than the less-known vineyards, only the choir of German wine lovers is knowledgeable enough to distinguish these in a wine shop (especially since the law STILL allows for the blatant SWINDLING of consumers with the permissible labeling of Grosslagen when they bear such close resemblance to single vineyards in name and wording.) It would benefit all of German wine to use clear, precise language when describing the countries best vineyard sites instead of continuing to appease large corporate growers with fuzzy language and label trickery.
The other consumer disconnect seems to be with the German (since 1971 especially) obsession with placing more emphasis on must weight than terroir. The focus on Prädikat levels had to do with providing large ‘fruit orchard’ growers and bottlers with a way to get higher prices for their Auslese bottlings of sub-par Riesling and vine crossings and to ‘democratize’ the industry for those who didn’t own prime vineyard land. The problem is that the system increasingly means absolutely nothing. The declassification of Beerenauslese to Auslese, Auslese to Spätlese, and Spätlese to Kabinett to not only ‘out-do’ your neighbors, but to make able a larger range of wines at different price-points is ridiculous. When was the last vintage we saw with ‘True’ Kabinett instead of downgraded Spätlese? No other country in the world (besides maybe Austria and to a much lesser extent France in Alsace with VT and SGN) does this. Of course this is complicated further by the assumption of many consumers that the Prädikats have something (anything) to do with sweetness.
Despite all of this, Riesling remains (imo) the most fascinating, astonishing, rewarding, and de-f*cking-licious wine on the planet. It is one of the most food-friendly wines available, one of the world’s best bargains. Where the hell else can you find single vineyard, hand harvested, 300 case production wine, grown on some of the steepest, oldest vineyard sites known to man that will age for 30 years AND cost less than $40?

A lot of good reasons have been given to explain the lack of popularity of Riesling, namely -

1. Unfortunate historical reputation.
2. Opaque labeling for the uninitiated, particularly in Germany, where some producers' attempts to simplify just add to the confusion.
3. Lack of indication of degrees of sweetness, particularly in Alsace. German "trocken" adds to the confusion by allowing a noticeable degree of RS.
4. Difficulty of food pairings (I find no problem with the dry styles; fish, white meat and some cheese. However, much as I love them, my stock of off-dry to sweet Germans is little drunk for this reason; the same goes for demi-sec and sweeter Loire chenin.)
5. Too aromatic (This is Robin's personal taste and I don't think it explains lack of popularity. Think of Sauvignon blanc.)
6. Variety and versatility (This is a quality for geeks but another element of confusion for the less initiated.)

To my mind, however, the deep reason, aggravated by most of the the above, why Riesling will never be very popular lies in its brightly appealing acidity and minerality, which are precisely qualities which so appeal to most wine geeks. Of course more southerly Riesling (northerly down-under) has more body and "gras" and less acidity than MSR, but some sharply focused brightness is present in all good examples from whatever the provenance. Really popular grapes, like "Chardonnay" and "Merlot", tend to associated in the public mind with a blander and fatter style (although there are many geek worthy exceptions, e.g. Chablis).

If you don't like Riesling, please tell us why.

Its not a variety that I normally buy, except in dessert versions. I normally consume wine with food and most times I open a red. When I want a white wine, Riesling is not one that appeals.

I think maybe, searching for an explanation, there's an oiliness about it in the mid palate.

I've tasted lots of them, enjoyed some and bought the odd dry Rieslings after reading rave reviews on various boards, but none have filled an on going need.

Checking my cellar I find i have 4 Rieslings (out of 270 bottles) - and I bought none of them, they were all given to me.

Its not so much that I don't like Riesling, I don't dislike it, its just that there are many other white varieties that I much prefer.

I think maybe, searching for an explanation, there's an oiliness about it in the mid palate.

I've tasted lots of them, enjoyed some and bought the odd dry Rieslings after reading rave reviews on various boards, but none have filled an on going need.

Checking my cellar I find i have 4 Rieslings (out of 270 bottles) - and I bought none of them, they were all given to me.

Its not so much that I don't like Riesling, I don't dislike it, its just that there are many other white varieties that I much prefer.

Good point, Peter. I like that oily taste but I can quite understand that many (maybe most) people do not.

Peter thinks.......its just that there are many other white varieties that I much prefer.....and naturally buy!.

That is a very good point and I have just checked the cellar to see what I have here. I am very much a white wine fan and have approx six cases of mixed whites. The Germans I have were purchased in the mid/late `90s but now Austria, Australia, S France, Alsace have taken over!! P Gris, Rhone varietals, Semillon, Sauv Blanc seem to have more favour although I am going through some Rieslings from land of Oz.

[David M. Bueker]

Bill Hooper - have you been listening to the German Wine episodes on the TalkShoe? I've touched on much of what you are saying, but didn't feel it appropriate to go into depth, as it would be rather "newbie unfriendly."

Perhaps when I do part 4 of the on-going series you could join us.

Bill Hooper - have you been listening to the German Wine episodes on the TalkShoe? I've touched on much of what you are saying, but didn't feel it appropriate to go into depth, as it would be rather "newbie unfriendly."

Perhaps when I do part 4 of the on-going series you could join us.

David, I'm not familiar with talkshoe, though I've read the term tossed around a bit on these pages. Is it conducted during work hours? Can I check in via cellphone? I'd love to get involved in the discussion.

May Riesling's umpopularity continue to flourish. Suits me just fine, particularly with the outrageous and unjustified hike in Burgundy prices since the 'stellar' 2005 vintage.

With me it started out as a sweetness thing. I really don't go much for sweet wines although a good port can be nice with desert. The first reislings I tried or was served were simply too sweet for me. Since then I have been educated that there are dry reislings and I have sampled a few. And I agree that the dry reislings are very different. But, and here's the big thing with me, they aren't so "impressive" to my taste that I wanted to seek them out. Yes, the dry resilings are much better suited to my taste but not much that I said to myself "I've got to find more of that."

And here's the big confession.... the world of wine is simply too big for me. There are too many wines and too little time. I have found wines that I like and tend to stick with them. I have enormous holes of basic ignorance. I will freely admit I know very little of either Italian or German wines. And I find as I get older (I'm pushing 60) I am less and less troubled by the holes in my wine knowledge. So with me, for reisling to make a dent in my buying habits, I am going to have to taste one that makes me say "WOW" and that hasn't happened yet.

Glenn

I LOVE THEM ALL. I hope others continue to shun wines from the Wehlener Sonnenuhr vineyard, Old Mission Peninsula, or anything with the name "Donnhoff" on it. I encourage that kind of thinking.

I couldn't agree more. Go away, leave them alone, fuggedaboudem, that's what I say.

Dry or not, Riesling is perhaps the best and most versitile white grape. Problem is that most people have never had a good one, or even know where to get one. Around Christmas, a fairly large group from work go out to lunch at a decent restaruant here in NJ; this particular place has some nice wines by the glass (rare in BYO NJ). Because a few of my co-workers know I'm into wine, I'm asked what's worth trying on the list. On the white side there is a Keller trocken which I say sound like a good bet; several people order and are very impressed. Then I am asked: where can I get a wine like this? Therein lies the problem: where does one get a bottle of this wine (or something similar), even in a big metropolitan market? It isn't like I can say "go to Total Wine and they will have it" - most of the good producers are small and the distribution is spotty.

And as others have pointed out, German labeling can be intimidating to the novice - even if the wines aren't hidden in the most obscure corner of the shop!

Sue,

Interesting question, and interesting responses. I love Riesling, and personally don't see much to dislike, apart from the poorly made examples. I went to a presentation yesterday in NYC where one of the speakers discussed various trends in the wine market. For 2007, the fastest growing "major" varietal wine in his research was Riesling, just edging out Pinot Noir. Malbec was the fastest-growing overall--but off a tiny base.

For the same reason I don't much care for Gewurztraminer, Chenin Blanc, Muscat or Chardonnay anymore....they just don't turn my crank.


Having said that, wineries like Claiborne and Churchill have vinted some very nice dry Riesling, Gewurztraminer and Muscat wines.

In Australia, we've, indeed, been most fortunate to have decades of access to many terrific established cool climate viticultural districts that produce a wealth of top notch (mainly bone dry) Riesling that is great to drink when fresh, floral and crisp and, virtually, any time until they're wonderfully aged, honeyed and toasty (sometimes quite petrolly). And the great thing is - they don't cost an arm or a leg to buy at release (nowadays most between $10-$20, except for a small band of super premium "reserve" bottlings or from the very best producers - e.g Grosset $30-$40, respectively, for their two Watervale and Polish Hill labels). I've drunk examples of Oz Riesling with up to thirty years bottle age (e.g Leo Buring's Clare and Eden Valley DW range from the late sixties and early seventies) that display compelling complexities on both bouquet and palate, a degree of freshness that bely their age, with ample remnants of the original crisp, natural acidity, well and truly, intact. IMHO, and without any doubt, world-class wines. In order to produce wines with such longevity and prowess, my gut suggests these wines were/need to be picked relatively early, relying on a long, slow, even ripening period with warm days and cool nights to maintain the necessary fruit/acid balance. From my very early experiences with wine, a few of the Leo Buring's displayed such a degree of austerity, with an overabundance of mouth-searing acidity cloaking the fruit, they failed to provide much joy of drinking until they were well into their teens. For this very reason, Buring (also Lindemans and, to a lesser extent, Seppelt amongst others) often held back relatively large quantities of the best (cellaring) vintages, only releasing them with considerable bottle age under their belt. In more recent times, this generous "aged release" program seems to have hit the wall, so to speak, with the "big company" bean-counter mentality prevailing and, understandably, the need to maintain cash flows, particularly for many of the smaller makers battling to keep their operations solvent (and there's always plenty in that position, so it seems). Hence, many Oz Rieslings are now being picked later at much higher baume's, seem to be decidedly more "fruity", "in your face", even acid adjustment is becoming commonplace and, of course, all in the cause of being easier to flog to the everyday punters who drink just about everything they buy within a day or three of purchase. And, often, they are "dead and buried" by the time they are old enough to attend kindergarten! Oh well, $%^@ happens!

BTW, Sue, great topic!

In Australia, we've, indeed, been most fortunate to have decades of access to many terrific established cool climate viticultural districts that produce a wealth of top notch (mainly bone dry) Riesling that is great to drink when fresh, floral and crisp and, virtually, any time until they're wonderfully aged, honeyed and toasty (sometimes quite petrolly)....

Aged Australian Riesling - a veritable treasure often pulled out from someone's wine cellar, and usually purchased for a bargain.

From my very early experiences with wine, a few of the Leo Buring's displayed such a degree of austerity, with an overabundance of mouth-searing acidity cloaking the fruit, they failed to provide much joy of drinking until they were well into their teens.

Wines like the young Burings, tasted when too young, too austere, too mouth-puckeringly dry, certainly put lots of people off from those I've talked too. When we taste wines like this (blind) at the consumer tastings I go to, with 74 or more people in the room, and we are asked who likes it - only about 4 people will raise their hand.

Hence, many Oz Rieslings are now being picked later at much higher baume's, seem to be decidedly more "fruity", "in your face", even acid adjustment is becoming commonplace and, of course, all in the cause of being easier to flog to the everyday punters who drink just about everything they buy within a day or three of purchase.

At the same consumer wine tastings I go to here, we are noticing that some Aussie rieslings are evoking comments like, "not as dry as I expected it to be" - this must be the reason why.

Sue,

Interesting question, and interesting responses. I love Riesling, and personally don't see much to dislike, apart from the poorly made examples. I went to a presentation yesterday in NYC where one of the speakers discussed various trends in the wine market. For 2007, the fastest growing "major" varietal wine in his research was Riesling, just edging out Pinot Noir. Malbec was the fastest-growing overall--but off a tiny base.

Hi Joe,
Thank for your comments. Which wine market was this? The New York market, the US market? It's not a trend that is apparent in my part of the world, yet.
Cheers,
Sue

.... Then I am asked: where can I get a wine like this? Therein lies the problem: where does one get a bottle of this wine (or something similar), even in a big metropolitan market? It isn't like I can say "go to Total Wine and they will have it" - most of the good producers are small and the distribution is spotty.

Yes, therein lies a problem. Where I come from we have specialist wine stores, corner wine stores and supermarkets. In all but the specialist stores, it's hard to find Riesling - and certainly not imports (German / Alsace). My local supermarket has a shelf marked Riesling without a single riesling on it as the popularity of Pinot Gris takes over. It's all sauvignon blanc, pinot gris and chardonnay on that supermarket's wine shelves. I eventually found four in the chiller - all commercial large volume brands. It's certainly not endearing new wine drinkers to experiment with trying styles.

Hi Joe,
Thank for your comments. Which wine market was this? The New York market, the US market? It's not a trend that is apparent in my part of the world, yet.
Cheers,
Sue

Sue,

These numbers were for the U.S. overall, up 23.9% over last year.

Cheers,

Hi Joe,
Thank for your comments. Which wine market was this? The New York market, the US market? It's not a trend that is apparent in my part of the world, yet.
Cheers,
Sue

Sue,

These numbers were for the U.S. overall, up 23.9% over last year.

Cheers,

Joe, Was everything up because of more people drinking, or has something else suffered at Riesling's expense?

Joe, Was everything up because of more people drinking, or has something else suffered at Riesling's expense?

Sue,

Overall growth is only in the single digits, but that doesn't mean that something necessarily had to actually decline--maybe some variety with a much bigger base (Chardonnay, for example) only grew tenths of a percent, while varieties with smaller bases grew faster. The presentation I attended focused on the positive trends from a wine-marketer's perspective. Pinot Noir was up almost as much as Riesling, with double-digit gains also posted by Cabernet Sauvignon and Pinot Gris/Grigio. The single fastest growing variety in this study was Malbec--up more than 500% off a tiny base.