More ridiculous wine rulings from the French

Hi,

Blame the English and the Europeans for slavery, yes (in fact, a lot of those who slaughtered the American Indians were from the Old World too)..
But "temperance"? Sure, certain religious sects in England banned alcoholic consumption, but never was this outlawed by the government!

There has been a smoking ban in France for 11 days. You can't even light up in a bar.
This journalist from the LA Times (a non-smoker) regrets the ban, largely attributed to American influence
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la- ... -rightrail

I see that the jury is out on WLDG as to whether America actually plays a role in these movements.

We each have our own perspective. I see things from abroad and Dale, for instance, sees things from one of America's most sophisticated and cosmopolitan cities.
As always, the truth is probably somewhere in-between what we all say .

Best regards,
Alex R.

[Robin Garr]

Yup, though it's fair to point out that the Protestant nonconformists (aka Puritans) weren't limited to England, being also found in the Netherlands and with similar trends in the Lutheran splinter groups in Scandinavia.

Well, yeah, but we tend to conflate two historical trends when we speak of "Puritanism." Certainly the Puritans (and the Quakers) were as you say, "anti-hedonistic." Nice word.

But if I'm not mistaken, aggressive, evangelical Prohibitionism was a creature of the 19th century, not the 17th, and was spurred into action by drunkenness among London's poor, but soon found a receptive new home as an "anti-saloon" movement in the US among the Puritans' heirs.

Hi,

Blame the English and the Europeans for slavery, yes (in fact, a lot of those who slaughtered the American Indians were from the Old World too)..
But "temperance"? Sure, certain religious sects in England banned alcoholic consumption, but never was this outlawed by the government!

There has been a smoking ban in France for 11 days. You can't even light up in a bar.
This journalist from the LA Times (a non-smoker) regrets the ban, largely attributed to American influence
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la- ... -rightrail

I see that the jury is out on WLDG as to whether America actually plays a role in these movements.

We each have our own perspective. I see things from abroad and Dale, for instance, sees things from one of America's most sophisticated and cosmopolitan cities.
As always, the truth is probably somewhere in-between what we all say .

Best regards,
Alex R.

No, Alex. The truth is in history, and Robin's got it right.

The American Prohibition movement was inspired by happenings in England and was only successful after it allied with the American Women's Movement, which was also largely British inspired. The vast difference is that in America the prohibition movement succeeded politically--after 85 years of pushing.

What's going on in Europe and in America is not a nationalistic problem, it's a moralism attitude that has been with all humans, and likely always will be.

Never blame "them;" that's the way toward both rabid nationalism and blind complacency; it's always us!

There, you've taken me--briefly--out of retirement. I am procrastinating, and the Internet is the best place I know to do that. I also wanted to use the new system at least once.

Yup, though it's fair to point out that the Protestant nonconformists (aka Puritans) weren't limited to England, being also found in the Netherlands and with similar trends in the Lutheran splinter groups in Scandinavia.

Well, yeah, but we tend to conflate two historical trends when we speak of "Puritanism." Certainly the Puritans (and the Quakers) were as you say, "anti-hedonistic." Nice word.

But if I'm not mistaken, aggressive, evangelical Prohibitionism was a creature of the 19th century, not the 17th, and was spurred into action by drunkenness among London's poor, but soon found a receptive new home as an "anti-saloon" movement in the US among the Puritans' heirs.

Hold on, Robin. I'm willing to take the blame, on behalf of Britain, for puritanism but not for prohibition.

There were a number of temperance movements in Britain in the 19th century, some of which advocated complete abstinence. Many but not all had at evangelical , particularly Wesleyite background, and women tended to be prominent as activists. However, none of this was ever translated into law.

Britain's famous licensing laws (which license the right to sell alcoholic drink and restrict drinking times in public houses) were enacted as late as World War 1 and were, I believe, a response more to correctly perceived social problems connected with drink than to pressure from the temperance movement. There was never any restriction to quantities bought or consumed in licensed premises. High UK duties on alcoholic drink, however, may have been influenced by the temperance movement.

Please tell me if I am missing something.

[Robin Garr]

Please tell me if I am missing something.

No, Tim, not at all. Thomas (who I'm delighted to see pop briefly out of hiatus) said it well: Yes, of course, our ancestors pushed "Temperance" all the way to Prohibition, and the British, to their credit, did not.

I only meant to say that the organized "Temperance" movement had its roots in 19th century London and not 17th century Massachusetts. But certainly it found fertile ground in the US and, as Thomas notes, eventually led to anti-alcohol laws in the US.

[James Roscoe]

If we really want to "blame" someone why not blame the Romans? They are convenient and the fount of all these problems anyway. Heck, if you are a fundamentalist Christian you can blame Adam and Eve or that pesky snake. Otherwise, let's blame the Africans. We're all from Africa originally anyway!

(For the record, I find myself ageeing with Robin's analysis. I can't believe I said that! )