Screwcaps give faultless performance

None in my case, Neil. But I love the glass cork. Elegant, reusable, predates the tree cork -- what's not to like?

Regards, Bob

I found out yesterday why I haven't seen the glass stopper in commercial production in New Zealand yet. It is because the glass stopper needs special bottles. The bottle manufacturers in New Zealand - and in Australia, are manufacturing bottles for screwcaps and because bottles for screwcap closures, cork and cork style closures are so accessible, I cannot see the glass stopper taking off. Of course someone might use them to make a point-of-difference statement, but it will be niche.

Cheers,
Sue

[James Roscoe]

Tim,
The troll is the thread, not you. It's not always about you. Let's try to keep that ego in check. You need to learn that not everything is personal.
Cheers!

Actually, James, the thread did not start as a troll. It started as a statement of fact.
Cheers,
Sue

Sue,
I absolutely agree, but the thread became a troll through no fault of your own. Although, almost any posting on this subject has the potential to become a troll. This one is in the throes of becoming an all-time monster troll. You might be the Mary Shelley of the wine board world. Of course that makes Niell either Percey Shelley or Lord Byron. I suppose he can take his pick.

Cheers!
James

Yo, Tim:

I would be remiss if I didn't mention the wines from Don Sebastiani and Sons/Three Loose Screws/The Other Guys. These guys have been doing a great job---creative ideas, snazzy packaging that catches the customer's imagination, and use of screwcap/Zork/Vino-Lok, along with some cork finished selections as well.

You might like Used Automobile Parts, Tim. You can buy a three bottle selection, with the wine sealed under all three alternatives. You can sample the screwcapped bottle, the Zork-topped bottle, and the Vino-Lok bottle. I know an adventurous and open-minded guy like you, thirsting for knowledge and experience, would leap at an opportunity like that!

Wow, that sounds neat. But I wish they didn't stop at just three types of closure. It would be great if they could make it a six pack, with natural cork, DIAM and synthetic cork included. Geeks like me would love it.
Cheers,
Sue

How come nobody has mentioned wine skins?

[James Roscoe]

How come nobody has mentioned wine skins?

Just don't put new wine in old skins or old wine in new skins. I think it's a great idea. Those leather sealant's might be a problem though.

.... I do have an issue with some screw capped wines, the ones that are covered with an impermeable capsule. Why is the capsule even necessary? But when it is used someone could have designed one with a tab--preferably, a tab that works correctly--so that undoing the plastic wonder does not produce an exercise in new language dexterity and the need for sharp knife to rip the thing to shreads with vigor.

Thomas,
That has been done here by a company called Vidal Estate. They are part of the Villa Maria group, an early adopter of screwcaps across their whole range (except for bubblies). But originally that could only get gold screwcaps when they wanted red, so covered the screwcap with a red plastic capsule. It also had a little pull tab to make it easy to get the over-capsule off. (Is that the kind of thing you were talking about?).
Cheers,
Sue

None in my case, Neil. But I love the glass cork. Elegant, reusable, predates the tree cork -- what's not to like?

Regards, Bob

I found out yesterday why I haven't seen the glass stopper in commercial production in New Zealand yet. It is because the glass stopper needs special bottles. The bottle manufacturers in New Zealand - and in Australia, are manufacturing bottles for screwcaps and because bottles for screwcap closures, cork and cork style closures are so accessible, I cannot see the glass stopper taking off. Of course someone might use them to make a point-of-difference statement, but it will be niche.

Cheers,
Sue

And I believe that, even without the bottle problem, Sue, the vino-lok is pretty expensive. It's intriguing, but I wonder if it has too many obstacles to overcome to become firmly/widely established in the marketplace.

Unlike some, though, I welcome the initiative...

Yo, Tim:

I would be remiss if I didn't mention the wines from Don Sebastiani and Sons/Three Loose Screws/The Other Guys. These guys have been doing a great job---creative ideas, snazzy packaging that catches the customer's imagination, and use of screwcap/Zork/Vino-Lok, along with some cork finished selections as well.

You might like Used Automobile Parts, Tim. You can buy a three bottle selection, with the wine sealed under all three alternatives. You can sample the screwcapped bottle, the Zork-topped bottle, and the Vino-Lok bottle. I know an adventurous and open-minded guy like you, thirsting for knowledge and experience, would leap at an opportunity like that!

Wow, that sounds neat. But I wish they didn't stop at just three types of closure. It would be great if they could make it a six pack, with natural cork, DIAM and synthetic cork included. Geeks like me would love it.
Cheers,
Sue

This group (essentially Don Sebastiani, part of the original Sebastiani Vineyards family, and his sons) are extraordinarly creative, and have a great deal of commercial courage---that is, they are not afraid to try new things and then support those trials with everything they've got.

Consequently, they are doing great things to spread the idea that wine is something pleasurable that can (and should) be consumed by younger LDAs.

It's still axiomatic in this country that roughly 14% of the people drink 86% of the wine---and more than 40% don't drink at all (according to stats from the Wine Marketing Conference), so we need folks like this doing things like this to get more people drinking wine. And apparently, it's working very well. They are very successful.

Hey, Tim?

I know I already mentioned Domaine Laroche, the Grand Cru Chablis producer who decided to put all his wine under screwcap, but I ran across this report of a tasting comparison, with M. Laroche himself officiating over a comparison of the same wines under screwcap and cork!

I knew you'd be fascinated by that, so here's a snippet from the article posted on Lisa Shea's website (but not the whole thing, because that would be, like, plagiarism, you know):

It was extremely informative to taste the Chablis wines side by side. We had the exact same wine from the exact same vintage, the exact same glassware. The only difference between the two wines was that on had touched tree bark and the other had not. The screwcap sealed wine was fresh, crisp, fully flavored, had a great mouthfeel and a lovely finish. The cork sealed wine was much more "muted". One musician in the room commented that it was as if someone had turned down the treble - that the high notes had been lost, and you were only left with the muddy bass notes. We found this to be true with every wine pairing we sampled. We also found this to be true with food and without. The screwcap version was fresh and complex, just the way the winemaker had intended it to be. The cork version had been altered by that cork contact and extra air exchange.

Michel explained that at a comparison tasting he ran the day before, two of the bottles sealed with corks were in fact "corked" - they'd been ruined by mold! Michel had to replace those 2 bottles with alternate bottles in order to fairly do the comparison. It goes to show how prevalent the cork-tainted bottle problem really is.

Now, you gotta admit that is interesting, isn't it. And kind of ironic too, what with Laroche having to deal with a couple of his own bottles being corked in a tasting where you're trying to compare cork-finished and screw capped bottles. I mean, whoaaaaa.

You know?

Hey, Tim. got another one!

Add the famous (well, famous in Germany anyway) Juliusspital from the Franken area (around Wurzburg. The great Jancis had it in a Gewachs tasting, and she realllllly liked it, dude.

Screwcap. They've gone over to your dark side. Or the "Quality uber alles" side. maybe?

Hoke, you might find some of this fellow's comments interesting; as you know, he is now on board the Wine Advocate with Robert Parker. The piece appeared on Jancis Robinson's site last June. David has expressed the same opinions elsewhere as well, and I suppose there may soon be something to the same effect in the Wine Advocate.

David Schildknecht, Ohio:

In one sense, screwcaps are a bit of a yawn with American consumers, but only in the sense that thus far, acceptance has been unimpeded. That said, the use of screwcaps on wines selling for over $25 is only now becoming a sufficiently common practice for one to measure possible consumer reluctance at higher price points or toward wines that self-styled collectors intend to cellar, as opposed to those for being drunk over the short term, as are the vast majority in the American marketplace.

Another interesting development is the first extensive use of screwcaps for more expensive wines from French wineries of high visibility and reputation. Two quality Burgundy houses, Laroche and Verget, are bottling a significant portion of their 2004s under Stelvin screwcap - largely for export, it should be noted. (Verget wanted to do this on a wider basis last vintage, but like a number of other producers worldwide, they were confronted at short notice with a shortage of caps from their supplier.) We'll soon get some indication whether French wine drinkers in the States think differently about alternative closures. So far, though, the acceptability of screw caps does indeed seem to be a non-issue for consumers.

Still, if they are yawning, so is the gap between the claims made on behalf of these closures by their strongest proponents, and our fundamental lack of knowledge about wine's long-term aging process and attendant chemical consequences of evolution under screwcap. Those issues are still very much alive - as witness recent exchanges in the Purple Pages [see below] and in serious journals such as The World of Fine Wine. Their resolution will not, I suspect, come quickly, nor will it make headlines.

In fact, consumers will be considerably less likely to acquire an aversion to screwcaps on account of gustatory deficiencies in the wines - young or old - than they were to cork. And heaven knows we were all for too long far too tolerant of cork. TCA contamination can result in some pretty obvious and odious aromatic blemishes, yet even so, most consumers and even some professionals will let pass their lips with little or no comment a significant percentage - if not the majority - of corked wines. The vast majority of consumers are insufficiently familiar with how a given wine could and should ideally taste to become even mildly suspicious of, let alone ascribe their disappointment to, tainted cork.

When it comes to screwcaps, then, I doubt consumers would react negatively to them on account of, say, higher than normal instance of reductive aromas, or failure of the wines to mature as well as they would have under perfectly clean cork. Such characteristics are simply not apt to be ascribed to the method of closure. If there are noticeable drawbacks to closure under today's screwcaps - and I am not trying to prejudice that issue - then this is of enormous importance to those of us who care deeply about wine - and especially to diligent, quality-conscious vintners the world over. But it is no disrespect to consumers to say that we should not look to them to effectively decide these important issues.

With respect to the psychology of the screw cap, the dissolution of the corkscrew, and the absence of obvious gustatory offences traceable to this manner of closure, consumers have already voted affirmatively in vast if not downright overwhelming numbers with their pocketbooks. It will be for winemakers and wine critics to plead the case against screwcaps, if they are able to make it airtight.

.... I do have an issue with some screw capped wines, the ones that are covered with an impermeable capsule. Why is the capsule even necessary? But when it is used someone could have designed one with a tab--preferably, a tab that works correctly--so that undoing the plastic wonder does not produce an exercise in new language dexterity and the need for sharp knife to rip the thing to shreads with vigor.

Thomas,
That has been done here by a company called Vidal Estate. They are part of the Villa Maria group, an early adopter of screwcaps across their whole range (except for bubblies). But originally that could only get gold screwcaps when they wanted red, so covered the screwcap with a red plastic capsule. It also had a little pull tab to make it easy to get the over-capsule off. (Is that the kind of thing you were talking about?).
Cheers,
Sue

Yes Sue, it's the tab I was talking about but rarely do those things work well; they usually get you about half way before they simply stop stripping. I simply don't see the need to cover the screw caps with any capsule--stupid, stupid.

How come nobody has mentioned wine skins?

Howie,

In my in-between days from the Air Force to the real world, I drove a cab in NYCity. I used to fill up a wine skin before going on my night shift and by the end of the shift it would be empty.

One night I picked up a young couple--my age at the time. About one block into the trip, as I waited at a traffic light, there was a tap on the compartment that divided them from me. I turned around to find the guy holding up a joint.

"Do you mind if we light up?," he asks.

So I held up my wine skin.

"Nope, as long as you don't mind if I have a few."

You should have seen the perplexity on his face...

Tim,
The troll is the thread, not you. It's not always about you. Let's try to keep that ego in check. You need to learn that not everything is personal.
Cheers!

Oh give me a break here, huh?

Immediately on the heels of my remarks, here you come with that "troll" bullshit....yet again.

Do discordant views scare you or something? Are we only supposed to agree with each other and not offend your peculiar sensibilities?

My mother didn't raise idiots, Roscoe...am I clear on that point?



Buddy, it's not all about you, either. OK?

Hey, Tim?

I know I already mentioned Domaine Laroche, the Grand Cru Chablis producer who decided to put all his wine under screwcap, but I ran across this report of a tasting comparison, with M. Laroche himself officiating over a comparison of the same wines under screwcap and cork!

I knew you'd be fascinated by that, so here's a snippet from the article posted on Lisa Shea's website (but not the whole thing, because that would be, like, plagiarism, you know):

It was extremely informative to taste the Chablis wines side by side. We had the exact same wine from the exact same vintage, the exact same glassware. The only difference between the two wines was that on had touched tree bark and the other had not. The screwcap sealed wine was fresh, crisp, fully flavored, had a great mouthfeel and a lovely finish. The cork sealed wine was much more "muted". One musician in the room commented that it was as if someone had turned down the treble - that the high notes had been lost, and you were only left with the muddy bass notes. We found this to be true with every wine pairing we sampled. We also found this to be true with food and without. The screwcap version was fresh and complex, just the way the winemaker had intended it to be. The cork version had been altered by that cork contact and extra air exchange.

Michel explained that at a comparison tasting he ran the day before, two of the bottles sealed with corks were in fact "corked" - they'd been ruined by mold! Michel had to replace those 2 bottles with alternate bottles in order to fairly do the comparison. It goes to show how prevalent the cork-tainted bottle problem really is.

Now, you gotta admit that is interesting, isn't it. And kind of ironic too, what with Laroche having to deal with a couple of his own bottles being corked in a tasting where you're trying to compare cork-finished and screw capped bottles. I mean, whoaaaaa.

You know?

OK.

So it's interesting....and?

You are dangerously close to overplaying your hand, my friend....because I'm willing to bet the ranch you have run out of screw cap sellouts, er..sorry, wineries to post.


My point, if I may be so bold, has been made.

[James Roscoe]

Tim,
The troll is the thread, not you. It's not always about you. Let's try to keep that ego in check. You need to learn that not everything is personal.
Cheers!

Oh give me a break here, huh?

Immediately on the heels of my remarks, here you come with that "troll" bullshit....yet again.

Do discordant views scare you or something? Are we only supposed to agree with each other and not offend your peculiar sensibilities?

My mother didn't raise idiots, Roscoe...am I clear on that point?



Buddy, it's not all about you, either. OK?

Where does all your anger and hostility come from? Geez did you scroll down and read all the rest of the posts?

Tim,
To be clear, I have never called or compared you to a troll. It is the thread that is the troll. It endlessly feeds on everything that is fed to it regardless of the content. To be fair, I have compared you to a brick wall as I believe you are not listening to the rational arguements being made by Thomas and others. I find Hoke's method of responding to you somewhat irrational and thus particularly funny.

Having stated my opininion on that issue, I think you offer a lot of great stuff in other areas. Your humor thread is great and I have enjoyed many of your food threads. I am not trying to chase you away. I just wish you would let this issue (corks vs. screwcaps) drop on this board. You get a little too sensitive on this one issue. Just putting my $.02 in for what it's worth.
James

Why don't you get some of that anger out of your system somewhere else? Let it drop man.

Scoll down...wha-?

So you hit-and-run then make some sort of a weak disclaimer some several posts later? Like this was the first time? An amazing sense of selective amnesia you seem to have.


Well then...righty-O, Roscoe.


I sincerely hope that you do not treat people in your workplace the same way as you did me here. Wow.

[James Roscoe]

Scoll down...wha-?

So you hit-and-run then make some sort of a weak disclaimer some several posts later? Like this was the first time? An amazing sense of selective amnesia you seem to have.


Well then...righty-O, Roscoe.


I sincerely hope that you do not treat people in your workplace the same way as you did me here. Wow.

You are quite an amazing person.

Scoll down...wha-?

So you hit-and-run then make some sort of a weak disclaimer some several posts later? Like this was the first time? An amazing sense of selective amnesia you seem to have.


Well then...righty-O, Roscoe.


I sincerely hope that you do not treat people in your workplace the same way as you did me here. Wow.

You are quite an amazing person.

Indeed.


And your attempted assassination of my particular views on this thread speaks volumes about what kind of person you portend to be.


Perhaps, in the future, you will hold your tongue before falsely accusing a fellow poster of being a troll, eh?


Cheers.

[Robin Garr]

Why don't you get some of that anger out of your system somewhere else? Let it drop man.

Good advice.

[Robin Garr]

Perhaps, in the future, you will hold your tongue before falsely accusing a fellow poster of being a troll, eh?

This would be a good point for everyone to let this sub-thread drop, Tim.

We haven't had a good old-fashioned flame war around here for a long time, and that's <i>good</i>.

I don't want a long reply. I don't want a discussion about who's at fault or who's not at fault, or why. I'm not at all interested in that. I just want everybody to go to neutral corners and cool down.

Capish'?

Why don't you get some of that anger out of your system somewhere else? Let it drop man.

Good advice.

Right.

All my fault.

Got it.

Thanks for your "support."

"Thanks for your "support.""

Oh, come on Tim. Robin's job is to support the Discussion Group. He's asking for a truce -- why not respect his role and his site and let it go.

You make many great suggestions. How about going over to the FLDG and letting us know about some great pasta sauces.

Regards, Bob

Hey, I'm neutral. I'm cool.

And no, Tim, I'm not even close to being out of newly discovered (and some old faves) screwcapped wines to tell you about.

Lessee....

Would you believe...Domaine Chandon? Not the bubbly, the still chardonnay they sell. Yep, screwcap!

Fess Parker? Uh huh.

How about good old Trentadue? Also screwcap.

Two Tone Farm.

Quady. Quady Essensia in screwcap, sure enough. Easy open; easy drinking.

Sincerely, Neil Ellis, South Africa. A screwcapped hommage from SA to Sancerre.

Porcupine Ridge, also from South Africa.

Lulu B., a Pinot Noir. Screwcap. No corkscrew needed.

Lurton Les Fumees Blanches Sauvignon Blanc. Twist and drink, my man.

Cielo Pinot Grigio. You wanta hear the pop, you better put your finger in your mouth and make the sound yourself.

Duo, from Chile. Snap, twist, pour!

Royal Rheingau Riesling from Germany.

El Portillo, from Argentina.

Kumkani, another South African! What, those guys must think they're in New Zealand or something!!! Screwcaps everywhere you look.

Davis Bynum, back here again in the U. S. of A. Good old patriotic screwcaps. If you don't twist it, the terrorists win!

Joel Gott, from a Napa boy (but the wine says California). Still twist-off though.

Pepi. Twisty.

Monterra. That would be Central Coast, I think. Spin that cap off.

Two Angels. Okay, that's a new one on me. Screwcap.

Pomelo. Fresh grapefruity SB, undaunted by cork, fragrant and crisp under screwcap.

Tin Roof (but that's a second of Murphy-Goode...oh, what the hell, let's count it anyway).

Dancing Bull. Thank you, Mr. Gallo!!!

Tamas Estate. Twist and shout!

Sobon, up in the Foothills. Viognier, too! That's a.....twist, innit?

Twin Fin.

Caymus. Yep, mighty Caymus. They've been putting their enormously popular Conundrum under screwcap for a good while now. 750ml and 375ml. Seems to be selling just fine, too. Better than ever before, actually.

Vinum. Well, you'd kinda figure those edgy guys would go to the old twist-offs, huh? That's their style, after all.

Good old Austria steps up:

Hirsch GruVe. One of the finest, under the pristine twist-topper.

Lois from Loimer. A good QPR fave. twist...twist...twist...open!

Selbach. A definite fave amongst the Riesling lovers on this forum, and everywhere. they care about their customers. They're now under screwcap.

Dr. L. One of the stable of the renowned Ernie Loosen. Screwcap.

Noble House Riesling. rnk..rnk.rrnk.



Tim: I'm not even close to slowing down, bubba. Not even close.

Of course, if I'm boring or annoying you, I'd quit in a second. Don't want to wear out my welcome, especially with you getting all testy and---dare I say it---a little tetch paranoid there. Would you like me to cease and desist, Tim? If that would make you feel better....