Do you hate Bordeaux?

I wouldn't drink a $15 bottle over four days, but different strokes for different folks.

Are you the guy who can only drink Bordeaux?

You might think differently about that statement if you drank more wines from the Loire (especially Muscadet, Chenin) or Germany.

Yes, I am that guy, and I am talking about a $15 bottle of Bordeaux. I know that a lot of people drink Bordeaux over days, and I suppose it makes sense; it certainly does to them. But I find Bordeaux oxidizes over several hours, even if you put inert gas in it, or whatever. Unless you like oxidized Bordeaux it doesn't make any sense to drink a bottle over four days, especially a cheap one, which, in my opinion, should be tossed or used for cooking if you can't just drink it.

But when I received the response about Tour de Guiet not being a fine Bordeaux, I said to myself, Crap, why the hell am I recommending anything to anybody I don't know - i.e., in broadcast format. There is no accounting for taste, especially in America, and I am talking about myself.

But yes, I like wines from Loire (and Burgundy, and Rhone - north and south) second to wines from Bordeaux, and occasionally drink them lovingly. Since global warming, I have even found some German wines I like. But I still wouldn't drink anything over four days unless it came in a 50-gallon jug.

But I still wouldn't drink anything over four days unless it came in a 50-gallon jug.

We must be drinking different wines from the Loire and Germany.

In my experience, young German riesling and young chenin blanc can need several days of air to show their best.

Depends on the bottle.

Of course.

I really hesitate to get involved in this at this advanced point in the thread but what the heck.

Do I hate Bordeaux?... NO!

I have had some really wonderful bordeaux... complex, deep, with an amazingly long finish. But to a non-specialist, non -expert, bordeaux is not very user friendly for several reasons. First, in order to show itself at its best, bordeaux generally needs some time to age... often quite a long time. And while there are quite a few reasonably priced bordeauxs, it is exceedingly hard for non-experts to discern which ones are worth saving. And it is quite annoying to buy wine, save it for several years, then open it for that special dinner and find you have been aging something that is well... pretty ordinary. And unfortunately the bordeaux "names" that you are pretty sure you can rely on are so pricy that it takes most of the enjoyment out of it for me. So, I do have quite a few bottles of bordeaux that I am saving but I alway think of it as rather a crap shoot.

And if that's a problem don't get me started on burgundy.

It just amazes me how user unfriendly a lot of wine production really is.

Glenn

it is exceedingly hard for non-experts to discern which ones are worth saving?

Really? I would have thought that with all the coverage of Bordeaux, it would be relatively easy to pick the right wines.

Of course no one can ever predict with 100% accuracy which wines will age the best, from any region.

But, if you think Bordeaux is difficult for non-experts to choose age-worthy wine, which regions are better?

I apologize. I was too generalized. It is hard for me to determine which ones to buy. Most of what I see reviewed, I never see in stores. Much of what I see in stores, I never see reviewed... especially among the lower priced varieties.

Glenn

Most of what I see reviewed, I never see in stores. Much of what I see in stores, I never see reviewed...

I guess you mean for the stores in your immediate vicinity?

I don't buy/drink much Bordeaux because there are so many other regions I prefer and I don't have enough time. But I always thought that the large production of Bordeaux means that many of the middle to top wines were pretty widely available from the big retail outlets across the country.

But hey, what do I know, I don't actually buy the stuff myself

The thread that would not die!

I agree with Rahsaan that many Loires (in particular Chenin, but also Melon and sometimes Cab Franc) show better on day 2, 3, 4. It's less common in Bordeaux (lower acid varieties overall), but happens- I definitely had some '86s that showed better on day 3 when they were 10-15 years old.

I think in ANY region blindly buying will more likely get you a frog than a prince. Due to the wealth of info about Bordeaux, I think of it as one of the least risky regions (if you have a sense of what you like stylistically)

Some less expensive Bordeaux are small production, but there are plenty of others with 10K cases and way up. I have had very good luck aging wines like Potensac, Cantemerle, Caronne Ste Gemme, Lanessan, Poujeaux, Fontenil, Dalem, etc in good years. There's never a guarantee, but track history helps. If you're looking at cellaring a wine without a real reputation for aging, then I'd suggest trying it first. If you think it is tasty and balanced, and showing structure (through tannin and/or acidity),then maybe think about cellaring. A wine that is good but too tannic is a good candidate, a wine that is only tannins isn't.

Nathan's $15 limit was fairly tough, but there are generally lots of good Bordeaux in the $15-30 range for my tastes.

I'm a new guy here

I'm a Bordeaux lover, i'll freely admit

I even went over to be trained as a Bordeaux Tutor in late 2006 and I do Bordeaux seminars 5-6 X a year

I love it

I think they are great food wines, and, although there has been a move to a certain style that I'm not as keen on (highher alc, and with too much trickery to get colour, fruit and tannins), in general I am pretty happy with a $20-25 Brdx and some grilled beef or lamb

I'll take it over any Aussie or Cal Cab or Merlot for the price (in our market)

And I am pretty keen on inexpensive Brdx whites like Chateau Lamothe - I love that stuff! Not sure how popular it is elsewhere, but it is doing well in my market (New Brunswick, CA)

[David M. Bueker]

But I still wouldn't drink anything over four days unless it came in a 50-gallon jug.

We must be drinking different wines from the Loire and Germany.

In my experience, young German riesling and young chenin blanc can need several days of air to show their best.

Depends on the bottle.

Of course.

You know with the exception of a bottle of 2000 Sociando Mallet (on release in 2003) I have never had any wine improve over more than one night in the stoppered bottle.

I have read many reports of German wines or Loire wines that got better over several days, and I am just not buying it. 99.9% of the time I find that wines lose focus and become less interesting after more than 24 hours in the fridge. I've done my own experiments with young German Rieslings, Loire Chenins and others, with one day open being the only positive result, and that infrequent.

But I still wouldn't drink anything over four days unless it came in a 50-gallon jug.

We must be drinking different wines from the Loire and Germany.

In my experience, young German riesling and young chenin blanc can need several days of air to show their best.

Depends on the bottle.

Of course.

You know with the exception of a bottle of 2000 Sociando Mallet (on release in 2003) I have never had any wine improve over more than one night in the stoppered bottle.

I have read many reports of German wines or Loire wines that got better over several days, and I am just not buying it. 99.9% of the time I find that wines lose focus and become less interesting after more than 24 hours in the fridge. I've done my own experiments with young German Rieslings, Loire Chenins and others, with one day open being the only positive result, and that infrequent.

If riesling and chenin doesn't exactly get better, they certainly hold their freshness and a lot longer than most wines and can be quite delicious on day 4-5. I will only say that Nick Jolys Savennieres' often take a few days to come around when young -more so than any wine I've encountered red or white.

When a wine improves overnight, most of the time I find day 2 to be the best. I don't remember a Riesling, Nebbiolo or Cab Franc I thought better on day 3, but have certainly had hold up. I have had bigger Savennieres, Huet Vouvray secs, and other sterner CBs I thought better on day 3 than day 1 or 2. Usually its high acid wines that hold well, but sometime hugely tannic ones ('86 Bdx).

Craig,
I thought a Bdx blanc called Lamothe de Haux was a very good value in '04, is this same property?

yes that's the same wine - Lamothe de Haux. The reds are good too, in the 20-25 range (actually, I liked all the 1er Cotes de Brdx reds when I was there)

We have the newer vintage of the blanc here now and it is as good, I think.

i visited them when I took the Brdx course. Friendly folks. They love Canada

It was interesting -- the white is Semillon, Muscadelle and Sauvignon GRIS - no Sauv Blanc! I found a few wineries on that trip that use Gris. Interesting.

I'm a new guy here

I'm a Bordeaux lover, i'll freely admit

I even went over to be trained as a Bordeaux Tutor in late 2006 and I do Bordeaux seminars 5-6 X a year

I love it

I think they are great food wines, and, although there has been a move to a certain style that I'm not as keen on (highher alc, and with too much trickery to get colour, fruit and tannins), in general I am pretty happy with a $20-25 Brdx and some grilled beef or lamb

I'll take it over any Aussie or Cal Cab or Merlot for the price (in our market)

And I am pretty keen on inexpensive Brdx whites like Chateau Lamothe - I love that stuff! Not sure how popular it is elsewhere, but it is doing well in my market (New Brunswick, CA)

I think he sums it up pretty well. I've had a few boring cheap $10-20 Bordeaux, but nothing as absolutely characterless, sweet, oaky, fruity, and vile as 90% of typical $15 California Cabs. And, I live in California so have easy access to a lot of said alcoholic Welch's Grape Juice concoctions.

I have read many reports of German wines or Loire wines that got better over several days, and I am just not buying it. 99.9% of the time I find that wines lose focus and become less interesting after more than 24 hours in the fridge..

Ok fine, yes, day 2 is usually the best.

Although I agree, it is rare.

I was just making the point with Covert that it's not necessarily a function of price, but rather of the structure of the wine.

[James Roscoe]

I wasn't going to respond to this post, but I'm pissed off. I hate Bordeaux! I hate everything!

[David M. Bueker]

I wasn't going to respond to this post, but I'm pissed off. I hate Bordeaux! I hate everything!

Thanks. More for us.

But I still wouldn't drink anything over four days unless it came in a 50-gallon jug.

We must be drinking different wines from the Loire and Germany.

In my experience, young German riesling and young chenin blanc can need several days of air to show their best.

Depends on the bottle.

Of course.

You know with the exception of a bottle of 2000 Sociando Mallet (on release in 2003) I have never had any wine improve over more than one night in the stoppered bottle.

I have read many reports of German wines or Loire wines that got better over several days, and I am just not buying it. 99.9% of the time I find that wines lose focus and become less interesting after more than 24 hours in the fridge. I've done my own experiments with young German Rieslings, Loire Chenins and others, with one day open being the only positive result, and that infrequent.

David - I'd have to agree with you.

I've tried every manner except inert gas (fridge, vacuvin, half bottles, an expanding o-ring, cork, etc.) and I've yet to have a bottle on the second day with the purity and freshness of fruit as the first day.

To my taste, Champagne holds up the best, but I still try not to leave leftovers.

I just had a nice Bordeaux, two actually, at a sweet wine tasting I did tonight for the local wine bar http://www.happinezwinebar.com (Canada's coolest wine bar

the 1990 Chateau Simon (Sauternes) was fantastic! Wish I had a cellar full. What a decadent experience. We had an 83 Taylor Fladgate Vintage Port too. smooth.

now THERE's a wine that would still taste perfect in 3 days! I do find that crisp acidic whites with some sugar (like a good off-dry Ontario Riesling) hold up really well in the fridge for even 4 days. They don't improve, but they stay drinkable.