Varietal

I fondly remember road signs when I was a teenager that read "drive slowly." Today, they read "drive slow" or just plain "slow."

Did I say that I fondly remember when they read correctly...well, I do. But they now read incorrectly, and I have gotten used to it--hate it, but am used to it.

Guess I'll just have to learn to hate the grating use of "varietal" when "variety" is meant, which, Hoke, is the issue, not the smokescreens you are throwing up with all those definitions of "variety."

When someone says or writes "varietal" within a context that is meant "varietal wine" that's one thing--but when someone says "varietal" within the context that means "variety" that's incorrect. Why can't you concede that small point?

"When I was a younger man, I remember variety stores, not varietal stores.

And I also recall variety shows. As a matter of fact, there was a variety of variety shows on the air back then. Variety shows were, like, a variety all to themselves. And if you made it big in showbiz, you could then get featured in Variety."

Hoke, are you suggesting that "variety" can be used as both an adjective and as a noun?

I had forgotten those variety stores -- and they always carried "sundries" if memory serves.

Neat word, that. Apparently the singular form is always an adjective*; the plural always a noun. Tricky little fellow, isn't it?

______
* Neglecting the now obsolete adverbial form.

Hoke, are you suggesting that "variety" can be used as both an adjective and as a noun?

Now, Bob, would I do that?

Guess I'll just have to learn to hate the grating use of "varietal" when "variety" is meant, which, Hoke, is the issue, not the smokescreens you are throwing up with all those definitions of "variety."

You wrong me, sir; I was simply exploring the wonderful variety of variety. Words are fun. They can mean whatever you wish---or need---them to mean.

Actually, I was riffing a la Lenny Bruce. You're old enough to know what I mean by that, Thomas.

And have you ever noticed that if you concentrate on a word, really focus on it closely for a long time, the word turns into gibberish? I've always thought that was neat too. Hey, you can even try it with gibberish!

When someone says or writes "varietal" within a context that is meant "varietal wine" that's one thing--but when someone says "varietal" within the context that means "variety" that's incorrect. Why can't you concede that small point?

Well, if it means that much to you... Actually, no I can't concede that point. Or I can concede, but that is not my point. It's the "correct/incorrect" thing, you see. It is only "correct/incorrect" to you. As you point out, though, it is in the process of changing, as language does, and will soon be seen as a different usage.

To you that's a bad thing, because it's not what you are used to; to me it's neither a good nor a bad thing. It simply is. It's sloppy, yes. It's lazy thinking, yes. It's being careless, yes, and with language, which means a great deal to you, both personally and professionally, Thomas. So I understand your angst (which in a previous time I would most likely have termed anguish, or for a while have called being up tight, or in a different place said pissed off); I simply don't share it all that much.

So, sure, if it makes you happy. Consider me conceding. I can make a concession easily, even though I don't have a concession stand or licence.

Actually, I was riffing a la Lenny Bruce. You're old enough to know what I mean by that, Thomas.

Aha: Variety is a preposition; varietal is a verb. It all makes sense now.

Mark Lipton

And have you ever noticed that if you concentrate on a word, really focus on it closely for a long time, the word turns into gibberish? I've always thought that was neat too. Hey, you can even try it with gibberish!

To you that's a bad thing, because it's not what you are used to; to me it's neither a good nor a bad thing. It simply is. It's sloppy, yes. It's lazy thinking, yes. It's being careless, yes, and with language, which means a great deal to you, both personally and professionally, Thomas. So I understand your angst (which in a previous time I would most likely have termed anguish, or for a while have called being up tight, or in a different place said pissed off); I simply don't share it all that much.

"am"...concentrate on am. Plain and simple gibberish after a few minutes.

Just to be clear, Hoke: I never said anything about misuse being a bad thing, just incorrect.

Re, Lenny Bruce: Yeah, I seem to remember someone by that name. Here's one he let loose on a stage in Greenwich Village one evening.

Warden to inmates in a men's prison: I'll do whatever I can to meet your demands, but not the vibrators.

"To you that's a bad thing, because it's not what you are used to; to me it's neither a good nor a bad thing. It simply is. It's sloppy, yes. It's lazy thinking, yes. It's being careless, yes, ..."

It may be all of those things in some cases, Hoke, but in many cases using "varietal" to describe a grape vine or an apple tree or any number of other plants has been accepted usage for over fifty years. A search on Google Books for the word "varietals" brings up over 160 books that do so. [And the usage is prevalent in the World Trade Organization, especially in discussing the so-called Japan Varietals dispute over apples.]

And, many writers, including Thomas himself (in Wine: The 8,000 Year-Old Story of the Wine Trade) , Hugh Johnson, Jancis Robinson, others, use "varietal" as a noun to describe a varietally labeled wine.

Regards, Bob

And, many writers, including Thomas himself (in Wine: The 8,000 Year-Old Story of the Wine Trade) , Hugh Johnson, Jancis Robinson, others, use "varietal" as a noun to describe a varietally labeled wine.

Regards, Bob

Right, Bob, but look at page 193: two back-to-back references to grape varieties, setting up the introduction of the concept "varietal labeling," which I introduce in quotes on page 194.

(proving that I may be stupid but I am consistent)

After that, I followed the accepted usage for "varietal" but doubt i ever used it when I meant "variety." If I had, I should have had my wine allotment cut in half, which would hurt a lot more than cutting my book royalties in half.

I doubt it too, Thomas, given how strongly you feel about the subject.

Cut royalties -- perish that thought, Thomas. As a reader, I want authors to make as much money as possible. Especially those that write about subjects I'm interested in.

I doubt it too, Thomas, given how strongly you feel about the subject.

Cut royalties -- perish that thought, Thomas. As a reader, I want authors to make as much money as possible. Especially those that write about subjects I'm interested in.

Bob,

Would you please write one of your great letters and send it to all publishers telling them to stop their returns policy.

How many wholesalers sell products to retailers and tell them that if they can't sell them at retail, they can send the products back and get their money back, no questions asked? Talk about disincentive!

Can you tell that I just got my royalty statement?