Do you hate Bordeaux?

Getting back to the original question...

For awhile, I could not understand all the fuss over bordeaux. I was buying bordeaux in the $15-30 range, but I was buying it in one of the LCB shops in Pittsburgh. It always seemed...boring. Then I moved back to Philly and started shopping over the border at Moore Brothers. On a whim, I bought a 2005 Chateau Haut Barreyre Premiere Cotes de Bordeaux for $17. Wow...this changed my perspective! It's amazing what wine tastes like when its not cooked (or otherwise just crappy plonk sourced by the PA LCB). Now I've become a convert.

This thread has reminded me of my all-time greatest wine bargain. A couple of years ago I bought one case of SHL 1996 rouge and one case of 1997 Blanc for $10 a bottle! Of course this is a rare find, but STILL! If I had any left, I'd post a note...

Nathan,

I hope you'll try harder to understand a category of wine that is well worth getting to know, and above all attempt to keep an open mind!

I think my perspective is so very different from yours because I live in the wine country and the choice is staggering. Had you access to a tenth the same wines as me, I'd wager you'd see things differently!!!

I'll give you a specific example. Last night we had a 2005 Ch. Anglade Bellevue, Premières Côtes de Blaye. This was a "coup de coeur" in the Guide Hachette and set me back the princely sum of 8 euros. Obviously, it was a little too young, but it was just brimming with fruit and had soft, quality tannin. It went down a treat with lamb chops.
Were you to taste it, I'm sure it would have, at the very least, given you pause for thought.
And thinking, and experiencing, instead of declaiming, is all I am asking you to do .

Jenise,

Speaking of perspective, isn't part of the issue (shipping costs) you describe due to the fact that you are located on the West Coast, over 6,000 miles from the region of production?
Furthermore, it has always been my experience that East Coast Americans have a much greater inclination to buy European wines than Left Coast ones. Might this not be a factor as well in both pricing and selection?

What does a "good" - not "fine," much less "great" - Califorinia Cabernet cost these days?
I disagree so adamantly with Nathan because I drink "value for money" Bordeaux all the time *alongside wines from various countries*. I see that Bordeaux can hold its head high in the medium price bracket and am genuinely puzzled by Nathan's diatribe. Obviously, he does not have access to the same wines as me!
I used to be in the wine trade. Sometimes I dream about taking early retirement and selling a range of these delicious medium-bracket wines to the US, as much of an uphill battle as this would be.

Best regards,
Alex R.

The latest edition of Decanter dropped in my letter box on Friday and fortuitously it contains a panel review of 2005 Médoc crus bourgeois.

This provides evidence of the good value available in Bordeaux in the middle price bracket from £6 to £24 (coarsely a tad less than $12 to $48) with only four wines above £20. (It is worth adding that, in my observation, UK prices tend to be higher than those obtainable on the near European continent by roughly 30% to 40% - before the recent sterling slide.)

Out of 156 wines tasted, no less than 6 rated a Decanter award *****, 30 "highly recommended" **** and 81recommended *** . Comments were generally enthusiastic. "These wines can be fantastic value." "These wines are well structured, ripe and delicious - they will go the distance and won't break the bank." "If I were a consumer and bought these wines I'd be very happy because there is great deliciousness."

However there were words of disappointment about the high number of wines (39) that rated no better than "fair" **. "Of course it's a good vintage, but it wasn't an easy vintage.....At the top level......this makes for sensational wines, with an explosive quality - a spark to them. But there is a great wealth gap in Bordeaux, and at the lower level it was a challenging year. Some of the wines smacked of poor viticulture, high yields and lack of ambition." (Andrew Jefford)

Nevertheless, bearing in mind these words, I find it encouraging that overall the results were so good, because very few really wealthy estates were represented here. Lest anyone says that this is a freak result because of the greatness of the 2005 vintage, I point out that the results for last year's panel tasting of 2004 were quite similar.

What of the credibility of the panel? It consisted of 12 persons, mainly wine professionals of which 4 MWs and wine journalists. The person most likely to be known in the USA was Andrew Jefford. But David Peppercorn MW, an old school claretist, Jean-Christophe Mau of Yvon Mau négociant and Steven Spurrier, Decanter's Consultant Editor, may also not be totally unknown.

(Note: Because of the controversy which surrounded Alej's posting of Parker's Argentinian scores, I have not quoted here any scores and comments specific to individual châteaux.)

This thread has reminded me of my all-time greatest wine bargain. A couple of years ago I bought one case of SHL 1996 rouge and one case of 1997 Blanc for $10 a bottle! Of course this is a rare find, but STILL! If I had any left, I'd post a note...

In 1977 I bought '67 Lafite and '67 Haut Brion for $10 each. I only bought one of each, but was in total shock a few months later when I bought a case of '75 Lafite at $29.50 per bottle.

In 1977 I bought '67 Lafite and '67 Haut Brion for $10 each. I only bought one of each, but was in total shock a few months later when I bought a case of '75 Lafite at $29.50 per bottle.

Interesting. Adjusting for inflation, what cost $10 in 1977 would cost $35 in 2007, and the case would have topped 100 bucks per bottle--accounting for the weaker general purchasing power that the dollar had in 2007 versus in 1977.

In 1974 I bought a house in Los Angeles on two city lots for $12,000..

Just think, today that could buy you a whole case of Musigny!

Maybe.

Depends on the producer.

IMHO, these professionals are deluding themselves if they do not realize that the inaccessibility of great Bordeaux is >turning a lot of people, including professionals, off ALL Bordeaux. These disillusioned customers (unlike, say, Covert) are >not scaling down to more affordable Bordeaux but are quitting the region for good.

Alex, isn't this a little bit like Yogi Berra's old quote about a night club, that the place is so crowded nobody goes there anymore? The Medoc, Graves and choice right bank appellations compose a finite region for fine its reds. The world is growing exponentially. Prices are being driven up because more people are chasing the product.

Alex, isn't this a little bit like Yogi Berra's old quote about a night club, that the place is so crowded nobody goes there anymore?

Covert,

The overcrowded (and overpriced) night club in question here is the 1er grands crus, super-seconds and Right bank equivalents. A lot of disgruntled former patrons are saying that they will not frequent the more modest but less crowded imitations run by the same firm.

Covert,

I agree with you.
The quote you highighted did not come from me.

Tim,

Are consumers really throwing the baby out with the bath water?

Perhaps a long-term look at the figures is in order.
Sorry I don't have a linkd to nifty graph that shows it all.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Covert, I agree with you. The quote you highighted did not come from me.

Sorry, Alex, I should have known. I was quick on the trigger having only a minute earlier to check the forum.

Also, I think I said the world was growing, when I should have said the world's population.

Covert

I see that Bordeaux can hold its head high in the medium price bracket and am genuinely puzzled by Nathan's diatribe. Obviously, he does not have access to the same wines as me!

Okay, here are three retailers "near" me [in truth, they're anywhere from 10 to 30 miles from me], with online inventory, and I'll throw in Charles Smith, up in Virginia, because he sees many of the same line cards from the local representatives of the 3-tier system:

1) Total Wine, Durham, NC: Bordeaux

2) The Wine Merchant, Raleigh & Cary, NC: Bordeaux

3) Washington Street Purveyors, Lexington, VA: all wines

4) Carolina Wine Company, Raleigh, NC: Left Bank, Right Bank, Sauternes/Barsac

Recommend something to me off of these lists.

I did notice that one store has the 2003 Guiet, at $13.99 - maybe I'll try that in a spirit of fair play.

Hi Nathan,

Thank you for your measured reply and your willingness to look into this .

I have looked over those 4 lists:

1) This first one, Total Wine in Durham, beats the other 3 hands down ***in the category we were discussing***.
If I were buying off this list, I would go for:
- Camarsac
- Coucheroy
- Lamoth Cissac
- Rochemorin
- Cruzeau
- Garraud
These are all wines I know and I consider worthwhile value for money.
I'd also go for
- La Fleur Montagne, not that I know it

2) The Wine Merchant in Raleigh has very few wines. The one I'd go for is Haut Bages Averyrous

3) The Washington St. store has nothing of interest in the red category. However, I know and appreciate two white Graves on their list: Le Thil Comte de Clary and Graville Lacoste. I realize that Bordeaux Blanc is another kettle of fish, and I'm on shoewhat shakier ground when it comes to this. However, I'm a believer there as well, although not *quite* so strongly .

4) Carolina in Raleigh has no wines in the category under discussion.

I point out that it was difficult to see vintages for some of these wines.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[James Roscoe]

Hi Nathan,

Thank you for your measured reply and your willingness to look into this .

I have looked over those 4 lists:

1) This first one, Total Wine in Durham, beats the other 3 hands down ***in the category we were discussing***.
If I were buying off this list, I would go for:
- Camarsac
- Coucheroy
- Lamoth Cissac
- Rochemorin
- Cruzeau
- Garraud
These are all wines I know and I consider worthwhile value for money.
I'd also go for
- La Fleur Montagne, not that I know it

2) The Wine Merchant in Raleigh has very few wines. The one I'd go for is Haut Bages Averyrous

3) The Washington St. store has nothing of interest in the red category. However, I know and appreciate two white Graves on their list: Le Thil Comte de Clary and Graville Lacoste. I realize that Bordeaux Blanc is another kettle of fish, and I'm on shoewhat shakier ground when it comes to this. However, I'm a believer there as well, although not *quite* so strongly .

4) Carolina in Raleigh has no wines in the category under discussion.

I point out that it was difficult to see vintages for some of these wines.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Alex,
Alex, on the FIRST page of the Total wine site I see two wines I have tried and liked a lot. They are the Bois Redon and the Vieux Grean. the bois Redon may be the BEST value on the market right now. Let Nathan think this is all industrial plonk. That way there is more for you and me!
Cheers!
James

In 1977 I bought '67 Lafite and '67 Haut Brion for $10 each. I only bought one of each, but was in total shock a few months later when I bought a case of '75 Lafite at $29.50 per bottle.

Howie, I am so jealous. I have remarked a number of times on this forum while telling stories of old that I had more money in the early '60s than I knew what to do with. Bought multiple cars and flew around first class just looking for ways to show off, basically. I had never heard of fine wine - nor the sense of buying waterfront property, for that matter. Now I scrounge around for $15 Bordeaux bargains and bitch about a president that is ruining my chances even to visit Paris occasionally via coach. Luckily I don't mind the current blends of over-manufactured cheap Bordeaux, and even love them. After work today, I will head to a local wine store where they have 2004 Clairfont. I think it might make educated palates like Dale Williams's gag. (I would love to get Jenise's reaction to it - as she occasionally surrenders a fondness for the downtrodden). It tastes a little like Sauvignon Blanc, it is so herbaceous (I call it underbrush). But I like it a lot and it is very cheap. Everything is relative.

Best,
Covert

Nathan,

I can strongly recommend the 2000 Chateau Les Trois Croix Fronsac from Total Wine. It is one of my very favorite 2000 Bordeaux. I know it doesn't meet you $9 - $14 goal, but it is a very solid wine.

A $15 bottle of wine is something that you grab on a lark from your local retailer, or that you stumble upon at a free tasting.

The wines are there, they are waiting for me, I can pick from them at my leisure, and merchants are reading and willing to open them for me to sample for free.

Why can't Bordeaux do that?

It's dangerous to make a contribution on an availability discussion from so far away as I am, but I tried a while back a generic Bdx made by the Cazes group called 'Michel Lynch'. A red and a white, under screwcap, both from the 2005 vintage. They were selling (exclusive to one retailer) in Australia for A$18 (about US$15-ish) and the red at least was very acceptable at that price. It's wasn't exactly life-changing, but it was way better than I was expecting - and in no way humbled by the kinds of local (ie Australian) wines available for around the same price.
cheers,
Graeme

I tried a while back a generic Bdx made by the Cazes group called 'Michel Lynch'. A red and a white, under screwcap, both from the 2005 vintage. They were selling (exclusive to one retailer) in Australia for A$18 (about US$15-ish)

I haven't seen Michel Lynch for a while, but It was about $6 here a few years ago. Has it really jumped that much?

The way I see it, there's nothing to hate: Bordeaux is one of the world's great wine genres.

About the only strong feeling I have with respect to it is that I don't believe in using it as a benchmark against which to judge other wine genres.

After work today, I will head to a local wine store where they have 2004 Clairfont. I think it might make educated palates like Dale Williams's gag. (I would love to get Jenise's reaction to it - as she occasionally surrenders a fondness for the downtrodden). It tastes a little like Sauvignon Blanc, it is so herbaceous (I call it underbrush). But I like it a lot and it is very cheap. Everything is relative.

I don't know about educated palates, plenty of people here have tasted more wine than I have. As I've noted repeatedly here I like a lot of inexpensive Bordeaux. Never had the 2004 Clairfont. I did have a 2003 Clairefont, 2nd wine of Prieure-Lichine, and disliked it (overripe and green at same time). Besides it was $25 or so, and I wouldn't call that "very cheap."
Some herbal flavors don't usually bother me, though an excess can.

I can strongly recommend the 2000 Chateau Les Trois Croix Fronsac from Total Wine. It is one of my very favorite 2000 Bordeaux. .

I really liked that too, it was about $15 originally. Nice wine I drank up too soon.

Another good $15ish wine is the 2005 Christian Moueix Pomerol. A combination of purchased fruit and juice that didn't make it into blend at Moueix's estates. Not stunning, but solid Pomerol. There's also Medoc and St Emilion versions, which were ok but not at same level as the Pomerol.

Okay, I drove 30 minutes [each way] to get to the store, and picked up a bottle of the 2003 Guiet.

It was on sale, at $13.99, down from $14.99, and they had three bottles left.

Tasted over the course of four days.

Now I don't want to diss the wine - it wasn't a bad wine - it's just that it wasn't a particularly good wine, either.

Don't know how it will cellar - on Day Two, the oak and the heat became separated from one another and the wine was noticeably more disjointed.

Apparently Suckling gave it 88 points, and I don't know that I'd necessarily argue with that score, it's just that those are 88 points which I'm not particularly excited about [or interested in].

Would I ever again drive 30 minutes to purchase this wine? No.

Would I purchase a case of this wine for cellaring purposes? No.

Would I purchase a case of this wine for everyday drinking purposes? No.

If I saw it on a restaurant wine list for $30 [typical 100% restaurant markup], would I purchase this wine? No.

If it were an extreme emergency, and if I were in an unfamiliar shop, and if I saw this wine for $13.99, and if it was the only label I recognized in the entire store, then would I purchase this wine? Maybe. I dunno - it would have to be one of those emergencies which call for getting drunk on any booze available.

Nathan,

Thanks for giving this wine a try.

I hope that you will have other opportunities to see whether the wines we all have recommended are to your taste.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Okay, I drove 30 minutes [each way] to get to the store, and picked up a bottle of the 2003 Guiet. Tasted over the course of four days.

I wouldn't drink a $15 bottle over four days, but different strokes for different folks.

I wouldn't drink a $15 bottle over four days, but different strokes for different folks.

Are you the guy who can only drink Bordeaux?

You might think differently about that statement if you drank more wines from the Loire (especially Muscadet, Chenin) or Germany.