More French Pronunciation: Jasnieres

Whilst in Paris I confronted another conundrum of French pronuncation (which I stoutly maintain is a plot by the devious French to confuse and embarrasss everyone not French).

Having been corrected stateside while attempting to pronounce Jasnieres in a restaurant, when I saw it on a wine list in Paris, I asked the sommelier how to pronounce it. Aha, thinks I, now I know the proper way to say it!

Then when I went to the next restaurant, lo and behold, it was on that wine list as well, so I asked for their pronunciation----and got the exact reverse!!!

Thoroughly confuounded by now, and even more convinced that it was all a nefarious French plot to confuse foreigners, I brought the subject up when I visited our forum buddies, Randy Resnick and Evelyn LeJeune.

Eve reported the same incidences of dual pronunciations

Finally, I figured it out:

If one is a southerner (langue d'oc), one is more likely to pronounce the first syllable while sounding the "s", and in a slightly more nasal whine, so the word comes out as "JAS-n'yehr", whereas if one is from the north (langue d'oeil) the "s" becomes a glide and is softer and less nasal, or "JAHN-yehr".

Eve reported that she's even been corrected by a M. Jasnieres, who was another northerner, when she pronounced the word the northern way. Darned French aren't even consistent with themselves!

To cap it off, though, I recalled advice from Bruno Prats many years ago when I asked him for the proper pronunciation of Cos d'Estournel. He replied, graciously, that he responded to ALL pronunciations as proper and correct, but acknowledged that "proper" changed according to the north (mainly KOH) or south (mainly KAHS). Bruno was a class act.

Now....is all that sufficiently clear?

Maze oooiiieee.

To help with my French, I bought some cds that would reputedly clear up some of the--to me--confusing pronuncations. The cds use two native French speakers and they often pronounce words differently. It doesn't seem to be an accent or dialect issue, more like they are employing two different set of rules. I keep working at it, but it looks to be a long journey.

It doesn't seem to be an accent or dialect issue, more like they are employing two different set of rules.

Only two different sets of rules? You're only in Beginning Elementary French then? Wait until you get into Basic French!

I'm telling you, it's a plot.

It doesn't seem to be an accent or dialect issue, more like they are employing two different set of rules.

Only two different sets of rules? You're only in Beginning Elementary French then? Wait until you get into Basic French!

I'm telling you, it's a plot.

Vive la difference!!!!

As a professional singer with degrees in voice performance, I have had to learn Italian, German, and French thoroughly, and especially diction for singing. While Italian and German came easily, French was by far the most challenging to tame. Famous French singers such as Pierre Bernac, Gerard Souzay, etc., all disagreed with each other constantly in pronunciation. Whenever I perform French Chansons or Melodies, I often compare recordings on purpose to see all the slight difference pronunciations. Then, I pick what I like best....et voila'!

[James Roscoe]

So English pronunciations are easy? Do we want to point fingers at the French when we have so many varying pronunciations? (Well, yes, it's much easier to grouse about another languge than our own.) Having just come back from four days in Charleston, SC I can attest to the variety of pronunciations in English. I won't get started on Gullah!

So English pronunciations are easy? Do we want to point fingers at the French when we have so many varying pronunciations? (Well, yes, it's much easier to grouse about another languge than our own.) Having just come back from four days in Charleston, SC I can attest to the variety of pronunciations in English. I won't get started on Gullah!

Good point, James! So, how do southerners pronounce "YELLOW TAIL"???

[James Roscoe]

Good point, James! So, how do southerners pronounce "YELLOW TAIL"???

Yellah tayl y'all.

Never mind pronunciation. If only the French could decide how to write their ACs, villages and vineyards it would be a good start! I am thinking of Burgundy in particular. It's very quaint to have the alternatives, but makes database searching difficult.

Nice, but you're leaving out the best part. Did you order any of these Jasnieres wines? How were they?

Never mind pronunciation. If only the French could decide how to write their ACs, villages and vineyards it would be a good start! I am thinking of Burgundy in particular. It's very quaint to have the alternatives, but makes database searching difficult.

Not sure what you're talking about? There are no real alternative spellings (that I can think of offhand) for Burgundy vineyards or villages?

Germany on the other hand gets more complicated as the presence or absence of the umlaut can change the letters involved.

Not sure what you're talking about? There are no real alternative spellings (that I can think of offhand) for Burgundy vineyards or villages?

I deliberately didn't say "spelling", Rahsaan.

There is for example the issue of whether "Echézeaux" has an accent or not, whether ACs like "Moulin-à-Vent " are hypenated or not. And Burgundy vineyards appear on labels with and without definite articles, and with slight variations, e.g "Le Clos Blanc"/"Le Clos Blanc de Vougeot", "Clos Vougeot"/"Clos de Vougeot". There must be more examples - these come off the top of my head.

Humans often handle these things without problems, but try getting computers to deal with these perversities.

There is for example the issue of whether "Echézeaux" has an accent or not, whether ACs like "Moulin-à-Vent " are hypenated or not. And Burgundy vineyards appear on labels with and without definite articles, and with slight variations, e.g "Le Clos Blanc"/"Le Clos Blanc de Vougeot", "Clos Vougeot"/"Clos de Vougeot". There must be more examples - these come off the top of my head..

Ok. Although you could have the same thing with hyphens, apostraphes, etc, for all the new world wines, except in some respects it is even worse in the new world wines because most of the designations are new and do not necessarily stick in one's head because of the limited associations, whereas at least the names in a place like Burgundy have centuries of history and references to make them easier to digest.

Although I am well aware of the proliferation of "cuvees" in every wine region.

I cannot really think of any examples with New World wines, but there must be some. I think gernerally they are keener to establish brand identity through consistency. Perhaps the sad thing with the establised French names is that the AC laws could so easily be applied to require conformity to a standard.

I cannot really think of any examples with New World wines, but there must be some..

Vineyard designations in CA pinot. From year to year every random obscure Male Name gets added to new "vineyard", and keeping them all straight seems impossible. Although perhaps it's easier for people who actually drink the wines (i.e. not me).

Slightly different from your point perhaps, but for me at least it is easier to keep track of French vineyards (why can't you just search for "Vougeot") than the US vineyards.

why can't you just search for "Vougeot"

You could if you didn't mind getting all the Vougeot village wines (and a few Clos Blanc de Vougeot) in addition to your Clos de Vougeot and Clos Vougeot.

Not sure what you're talking about? There are no real alternative spellings (that I can think of offhand) for Burgundy vineyards or villages?

Mazy, Mazis, Mazi
Epenots Epeneaux

In addition to those (and the many ways to write Clos de Vougeot that Steve mentions), it seems some write Champ Gain and other Champgains, some Taille Pieds and others Taillepieds, etc.

Mazy, Mazis, Mazi
Epenots Epeneaux

Yes. Those are good ones.

These are either actually different names or someone entered them wrong.

Actually it's a matter of divergent customs and traditions. E.g. Courcel calls it Epenots and Armand calls it Epeneaux, but it's the same vineyard where both producers have vines.

Perhaps things are indeed "simpler" down south in Bordeaux.

Mazy, Mazis, Mazi
Epenots Epeneaux

Yes. Those are good ones.

These are either actually different names or someone entered them wrong.

Most producers use Mazis, but I guarantee a significant minority (Rousseau and Roty off hand) use Mazy, and it is the same vineyard.

As Rahsaan notes, Comte Armand says Epeneaux, most others say Epenots.

What software are you using?

Me? Usually MS Visual Studio

Nice, but you're leaving out the best part. Did you order any of these Jasnieres wines? How were they?

Well, lessee----I grabbed a bottle from Lavinia and took it to Randy and Eve as a guest gift (along with a bio Carmenere from Chile made by an old friend and brilliant winemaker named Alvaro Espinosa--I try not to be predictable in my guest gifts).

I just co-oped on a case from a wine merchant (he's kinda shifty, but I think I'll get the stuff at a good price), and I plan to drink some and give some to a friend who I ruined forever by shifting her from oaky Chardonnays to Jasnieres (who then complained that it was a hell of a lot easier to find oaky Chardonnay than some obscure AOC in France).

Hey, I love the French--and especially Burgundian---segmentation and confusion of names within the vineyards of AOC. For instance the classic case where one vineyard in the Nuits is allowed two different names, both enshrined in AOC regs, because the different owners could never come to an agreement and both were too stubborn to yield.

I plan to drink some and give some to a friend who I ruined forever by shifting her from oaky Chardonnays to Jasnieres (who then complained that it was a hell of a lot easier to find oaky Chardonnay than some obscure AOC in France).

Sounds good. Although even if it is obscure Jasnieres is "up and coming" in the sense that more and more interesting quirky natural wine is being made there every year.

Let's hope we can't say the same thing about oaky Chardonnay.